Sicilian Defense closed variation

Prometheus_Fuschs
mariners234 escribió:

I didn't say he was right because he has a title, and pointing out he is distinguished in chess (at least much more so than you) is relevant to the topic because this topic is about chess.

Names and language is created by the masses and people in general, people call 1 e4 c6 2 Nc3 closed sicilian, I'd very much listen to Pouncin if we were discussing actual chess theory, this is just terminology.

mariners234
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
mariners234 escribió:

I didn't say he was right because he has a title, and pointing out he is distinguished in chess (at least much more so than you) is relevant to the topic because this topic is about chess.

Names and language is created by the masses and people in general, people call 1 e4 c6 2 Nc3 closed sicilian, I'd very much listen to Pouncin if we were discussing actual chess theory, this is just terminology.

That's true. In that sense you're free to call it whatever you want.

Although it looks like from the first page people were noting they wouldn't call it a closed Sicilian (and Poucin claims people he knows wouldn't call it that either).

Prometheus_Fuschs
mariners234 escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
ThrillerFan escribió:

2.Nc3 does not constitute the Closed Sicilian.  It's 3.g3 that constitutes the Closed Sicilian.

 

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 is the Grand Prix Attack

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 (or 3...d6) 4.d4 is the Open Sicilian

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 - Only now are you in Closed Sicilian territory.

Ermmm no

 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessopening?eco=B23

Like I said before, these are just rough guides. Because programs sometimes have difficulty classifying openings correctly they're not at all an authority on the topic.

And even if they were...

 

I didn't claim that was only a closed sicilian, and the highest of designations in that photo was "Sicilian, Closed".

Prometheus_Fuschs
kindaspongey escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:

Correct, I did read the wiki page. How does that make B23 (I'm too lazy to write 1. e4 c6 2 Nc3) not a sicilian closed?

... Nobody put wiki (or chessgames) in charge of opening terminology. Computer sources are apt to simplify and approximate actual human usage because it is pretty hard for computers to duplicate human usage.

Again correct, however, if a good chunck of people call it "Sicilian Closed" then it practically is that.

mariners234
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
mariners234 escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
ThrillerFan escribió:

2.Nc3 does not constitute the Closed Sicilian.  It's 3.g3 that constitutes the Closed Sicilian.

 

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 is the Grand Prix Attack

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 (or 3...d6) 4.d4 is the Open Sicilian

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 - Only now are you in Closed Sicilian territory.

Ermmm no

 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessopening?eco=B23

Like I said before, these are just rough guides. Because programs sometimes have difficulty classifying openings correctly they're not at all an authority on the topic.

And even if they were...

 

I didn't claim that was only a closed sicilian, and the highest of designations in that photo was "Sicilian, Closed".

That's the problem with trying to name the opening so early in the game. When something is highly transpositional people tend to wait (even if programs try to name things on move 1 and 2).

Prometheus_Fuschs
kindaspongey escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
mariners234 escribió:

... also these days it seems kids think they know better than an IM

I was expecting to hear that sooner or later.

No IM is any more an appointed terminology authority than chessgames or whoever, but titled players are more apt to communicate with each other and have an idea about what helps to convey important chess concepts to each other. Since they are also the ones who do most of the chess writing, it seems to me that it might be sensible to try to be in tune with the way they use language. Think that you will find much about 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 d6 3 f4 (with White developing his bishop to c4 or b5) in a typical book on the Closed Sicilian?

This FM calls 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 a closed sicilian.

Prometheus_Fuschs
mariners234 escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
mariners234 escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
ThrillerFan escribió:

2.Nc3 does not constitute the Closed Sicilian.  It's 3.g3 that constitutes the Closed Sicilian.

 

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 is the Grand Prix Attack

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 (or 3...d6) 4.d4 is the Open Sicilian

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 - Only now are you in Closed Sicilian territory.

Ermmm no

 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessopening?eco=B23

Like I said before, these are just rough guides. Because programs sometimes have difficulty classifying openings correctly they're not at all an authority on the topic.

And even if they were...

 

I didn't claim that was only a closed sicilian, and the highest of designations in that photo was "Sicilian, Closed".

That's the problem with trying to name the opening so early in the game. When something is highly transpositional people tend to wait (even if programs try to name things on move 1 and 2).

Isn't X line considered Y opening and the lines that transpose are simply called something else?

 

Point in case, what stops an unique position from having a name?

mariners234
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
mariners234 escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
mariners234 escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
ThrillerFan escribió:

2.Nc3 does not constitute the Closed Sicilian.  It's 3.g3 that constitutes the Closed Sicilian.

 

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 is the Grand Prix Attack

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 (or 3...d6) 4.d4 is the Open Sicilian

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 - Only now are you in Closed Sicilian territory.

Ermmm no

 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessopening?eco=B23

Like I said before, these are just rough guides. Because programs sometimes have difficulty classifying openings correctly they're not at all an authority on the topic.

And even if they were...

 

I didn't claim that was only a closed sicilian, and the highest of designations in that photo was "Sicilian, Closed".

That's the problem with trying to name the opening so early in the game. When something is highly transpositional people tend to wait (even if programs try to name things on move 1 and 2).

Isn't X line considered Y opening and the lines that transpose are simply called something else?

 

Point in case, what stops an unique position from having a name?

When the structure isn't set, people tend to wait on giving the position an opening name... at least when we're talking about a game.

As an illustration for a book cover, sure, maybe we could use the position after move 2 and call it a closed sicilian... but lets say I was playing at a tournament, and I saw that position, and after I walked away someone asked me what the opening was, I'd say they haven't decided yet.

mariners234

But yeah, if we get a typical structure, and then by some sequence of moves we transpose, then I'd call it X until it became Y.

kindaspongey
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
kindaspongey escribió [emphasis added by Prometheus_Fuschs]:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
mariners234 escribió:

... also these days it seems kids think they know better than an IM

I was expecting to hear that sooner or later.

No IM is any more an appointed terminology authority than chessgames or whoever, but titled players are more apt to communicate with each other and have an idea about what helps to convey important chess concepts to each other. Since they are also the ones who do most of the chess writing, it seems to me that it might be sensible to try to be in tune with the way they use language. Think that you will find much about 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 d6 3 f4 (with White developing his bishop to c4 or b5) in a typical book on the Closed Sicilian?

This FM calls 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 a closed sicilian.

"... In the fairly recent past the main line used to be: 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 (this move combined with an early g3 signifies the Closed Sicilian) 2...Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 5 d3 d6 6 f4 e6 7 Nf3 Nge7 8 0-0 0-0 9 Be3 Nd4 10 e5, a line which has been fiercely debated the last several years. But the constant attention on this line has also meant that a lot of Black players now know how to sufficiently meet this line. Therefore many White-players have switched their attention to 6 Be3 …" - FM Carsten Hansen (2002)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140626205247/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen32.pdf

Think that you will find much about 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 d6 3 f4 (with White developing the bishop to c4 or b5) in a typical book on the Closed Sicilian?

kindaspongey
mariners234  wrote:

… As an illustration for a book cover, ...

A recent Closed Sicilian book cover:

https://everymanchess.com/products/the-closed-sicilian-move-by-move

"The non-forcing nature of most of the lines in the Closed Sicilian means that many positions can be reached by numerous move orders. For simplicity I have therefore standardized the initial moves, even though many of the games did not begin this way. For example, rather than 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 5 d3 d6 and so on, a lot of players prefer 2...d6, ... In those cases 3 g3 Nc6 4 Bg2 g6 5 d3 Bg7 is a common continuation ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2017)

Zugerzwang
1 e4 c6 2 Nc3 is not even a Sicilian (perhaps it was a typo). The Closed Sicilian was developed and named many years ago ... it is more than just 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3, that is simply the headline structure for variations that will be later classified as the Closed Sicilian, not the definition of it ... if clueless players of today wish to re-define an opening that was well established and named by the players and masses of yesterday, well ....
1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 d6 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 d4, are you still going to call that a Closed Sicilian?
Optimissed
mariners234 wrote:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
mariners234 escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
ThrillerFan escribió:

2.Nc3 does not constitute the Closed Sicilian.  It's 3.g3 that constitutes the Closed Sicilian.

 

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 is the Grand Prix Attack

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 (or 3...d6) 4.d4 is the Open Sicilian

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 - Only now are you in Closed Sicilian territory.

Ermmm no

 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessopening?eco=B23

Like I said before, these are just rough guides. Because programs sometimes have difficulty classifying openings correctly they're not at all an authority on the topic.

And even if they were...

 

I didn't claim that was only a closed sicilian, and the highest of designations in that photo was "Sicilian, Closed".

That's the problem with trying to name the opening so early in the game. When something is highly transpositional people tend to wait (even if programs try to name things on move 1 and 2).>>

Quite simply, it's bad programming technique. It would seem to make sense not to believe stuff that's incorrectly programmed into a computer unless, of course, you worship computers.

 

Optimissed

Same goes for worshipping computer priests. I think it was Moses who climbed up a hill and, when he came down, he had a flash drive with various rules on it, including not downloading extreme subject matter and not worshipping computer-priests.

soufstar

good good thanks

Optimissed

Just clarifying. You're welcome.

nighteyes1234
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:

Correct, I did read the wiki page. How does that make B23 (I'm too lazy to write 1. e4 c6 2 Nc3) not a sicilian closed?

 

Because B23 is not 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3....and clearly says which moves are B23.

Only those moves listed in B23(to their entire line of moves) are B23. No partial lines or self-indentification. Must have all moves, no exceptions. Thats why 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 is not B24 either. Or B25, or B26. Thats ECO. What you call it or someone else calls it is irrelevant to what it is in ECO.

You call it B23, because once you stop calling it B23, you realize 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3{only} doesnt have a code number or grouping name. In ECO speak, you need the secondary classification before the broader classification.

kindaspongey

If I am reading the Small ECO 3rd edition (2010) correctly,

B26 is for 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 5 d3 d6 6 Be3

B25 is for other 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 5 d3 d6 possibilities.

B24 is for other 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 possibilities.

B23 is for other 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 possibilities.

Optimissed

2Nc3 does not constitute a Closed Sicilian because Nc3 is a very common move in an Open Sicilian and nothing has happened so far to prevent an Open Sicilian. Any nomenclature that has it that 2.Nc3 is a Closed Sicilian is therefore misleading at best, if not confused and incorrect. It doesn't matter if a GM wrote that it IS a Closed Sicilian, since worshipping GMs is as unmosaic as worshipping computer priests. Believe it or not, once a person becomes a GM, that doesn't mean that his opinions all become magically right. I used to know a FIDE senior arbiter and he was a complete idiot. So there. happy.png