Slav refuted by sound gambit?

  • #21
    [COMMENT DELETED]
  • #22

    Black should totally avoid 4...Bf5 against this line.  After 3.Nf3 and 4.e3, known as the Slow Slav, 4...Bf5 is best.  After 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3, Black should play 4...a6, 4...e6, or 4...g6, not 4...Bf5?!

  • #23
    ThrillerFan wrote:

    Black should totally avoid 4...Bf5 against this line.  After 3.Nf3 and 4.e3, known as the Slow Slav, 4...Bf5 is best.  After 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3, Black should play 4...a6, 4...e6, or 4...g6, not 4...Bf5?!

    How would you improve on White's play in the original post, then?

  • #24

    As white just play the exchange slav to win !  Wink

  • #25

    GreenCastleBlock wrote:

    ThrillerFan wrote:

    Black should totally avoid 4...Bf5 against this line.  After 3.Nf3 and 4.e3, known as the Slow Slav, 4...Bf5 is best.  After 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3, Black should play 4...a6, 4...e6, or 4...g6, not 4...Bf5?!

    How would you improve on White's play in the original post, then?

    I do not claim to have looked at this for more than 5 minutes, but I trust the assessment by a GM more than a lolligagging low master like the original poster or an expert like myself, let alone the bajillion 1400 players on here.

    That said, I did not run it thru a computer, but if GMs do not play this as black, either white is better in the position from the original post, or possibly something like 8.Nb5 instead of 8.Qb3. White threatens to win the queen, pushing the e-pawn makes the king look clumsy after the knight check and queen moves are no better. That leaves Rc8, which if the Rook must do this, white has time to inflict damage and/or take the a-pawn as well.

  • #26

    Reb wrote:

    As white just play the exchange slav to win !  

    As Black, just play the Grunfeld or Dutch and win! ;-)

  • #27

    Probably misquoting here, but I think Jan Gustafsson mentioned once that he doesn't believe that this gambit is sound for Black in OTB play. You should probably watch out for his upcoming games and see how he handles the position. Hope it helped! Laughing

  • #28

    I looked at it for more than 5 minutes and 8.Nb5 is not that good.  I did a ChessBase search and there are a few 2400+ Blacks who have chosen to go down this line.  8.Qb3 was tried 41 times. 8.a3 was tried 3 times.  8.Nb5 was played 0 times.  After 8.Nb5 Rc8 Black has met White's only threat and is getting ready to drive White back with ..e6 (necessary to give the K a square) and ..Rb8.  Meeting ..Rb8 with Nc7+ will just lose a piece because after ..Ke7 White can't retreat whilst still holding the N.  9.Bd2 (eliminating ..Qa5+ so White can take a7 safely) e6 10.Nxa7 is probably best. 10...Nxa7 11.Qxa7 Ra8 12.Qb7 Rb8 13.Qa6 Rxb2 with definite compensation for the pawn, as White has development problems and a K in the center, the extra a2-pawn is a long way from being a queening threat.  Reminds me of some of the more tactical lines of the exchange Slav where White goes after a Qside pawn and wins it but Black's pieces can just swarm in response - the draw comes from having active counterplay not just sitting back there and trading pieces on the c-file.

  • #29
    GreenCastleBlock wrote:

    I looked at it for more than 5 minutes and 8.Nb5 is not that good.  I did a ChessBase search and there are a few 2400+ Blacks who have chosen to go down this line.  8.Qb3 was tried 41 times. 8.a3 was tried 3 times.  8.Nb5 was played 0 times.  After 8.Nb5 Rc8 Black has met White's only threat and is getting ready to drive White back with ..e6 (necessary to give the K a square) and ..Rb8.  Meeting ..Rb8 with Nc7+ will just lose a piece because after ..Ke7 White can't retreat whilst still holding the N.  9.Bd2 (eliminating ..Qa5+ so White can take a7 safely) e6 10.Nxa7 is probably best. 10...Nxa7 11.Qxa7 Ra8 12.Qb7 Rb8 13.Qa6 Rxb2 with definite compensation for the pawn, as White has development problems and a K in the center, the extra a2-pawn is a long way from being a queening threat.  Reminds me of some of the more tactical lines of the exchange Slav where White goes after a Qside pawn and wins it but Black's pieces can just swarm in response - the draw comes from having active counterplay not just sitting back there and trading pieces on the c-file.

    Ok, so my original analysis was flawed, now that I have access to an engine, but so was the OP's.  White should not race the Queen back, but rather prevent any minors from going to b4:



  • #30

    Yes, as I mentioned before 8.a3 is the other move that White has tried, it's much rarer than 8.Qb3.  8...e6 does seem to be too slow here.  But what about 8...Rb8 9.Qa6 e5 !?  Black definitely has to make something like this work for him, because he has sacrificed a pawn and White's 8.a3 is a non-developing move.

  • #31
    GreedyPawnEater wrote:

    many people have sent me messages asking to tell them secret exchange variation that leads to practically lost position for black. i cant disclose that secret free of charge

    You can't disclose anything period; your account is a joke.

  • #32
    GreenCastleBlock wrote:

    Yes, as I mentioned before 8.a3 is the other move that White has tried, it's much rarer than 8.Qb3.  8...e6 does seem to be too slow here.  But what about 8...Rb8 9.Qa6 e5 !?  Black definitely has to make something like this work for him, because he has sacrificed a pawn and White's 8.a3 is a non-developing move.

     

    Nothing seems to stand out for Black.  I would think taking on e5 and playing something simple like Be2 after that should do the trick.  The Knight and Bishop stop any funny stuff on b5 with the Bishop.  I'd have to figure out how dangerous Nd3 is long term, but if White can afford to trade the Bishops he can force Black to do so or else give up the Exchange (via Bb5 Rxb5 Nxd5 Nd3+).  Maybe there's some trick up Black's sleeve, but I don't see it!

  • #33

    I play the slav from both sides.

    In my personal repertoire I can see I gave 6.Qb3 a "!". Why not go on like 6...Nc6 7.Qxb7 Bd7 8.Bf4 where houdini evaluate the position to 0.65?

    As black I will avoid all of this by playing 4.dxc4.

  • #34

    What is wrong with 6.Qb3 Bc8?

    "Nothing" does not count as a legit answer.

    6.Qb3 Nc6 7.Qxb7 Bd7 8.a3 is pretty much dead equal after 8...Rb8 9.Qa6 e5 10.dxe5 d4 11.exf6 dxc3 12.bxc3 Qxf6.

    Of course the acid test is 8.Qb3 where it's difficult for Black to show full compensation- so the line is a rare guest at correspondence chess. However, in OTB practice it looks OK to me, plenty of chances for white to go wrong.

  • #35
    pHUMpK1Ns wrote:

    I play the slav from both sides.

    In my personal repertoire I can see I gave 6.Qb3 a "!". Why not go on like 6...Nc6 7.Qxb7 Bd7 8.Bf4 where houdini evaluate the position to 0.65?

    As black I will avoid all of this by playing 4.dxc4.

    8.Bf4 is not legal.  White's pawn is on e3.  Maybe time to update the personal repertoire!

  • #36
    GreenCastleBlock wrote:As black I will avoid all of this by playing 4.dxc4.

    8.Bf4 is not legal.  White's pawn is on e3.  Maybe time to update the personal repertoire!

    Ahhh.. ha ha... I overlooked that in my repertoire I played Ng1-f3 instead of playing e3. This could be an idea which allows 8.Bf4.

  • #37

    Been awhile since I checked this thread, but some good stuff posted here. Special thanks to @ThrillerFan, @GreenCastleBlock, and @pfren for their contributions.

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