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Triangle Caro-French

  • #1

    This is analogous to the Triangle Slav and appeared in the discussion here:

    https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/caro-kann-bierwisch-variation-2-e6-aka-caro-french

     

     

    Any thoughts / ideas ? grin.png

     

  • #2

    Well, the line on the diagram can be considered as a subvariation of French Advance. tongue.png

  • #3

    Well, the basic Triangle Caro-French is characterized by the pawn structure 2DEd1ce. So it's

     

     

    Instead of 3. Nf3 white could play 3. Nc3, 3. Nd2 or 3. Bd3 (within the same basic pawn structure).

  • #4

           This is your latest engine discovery and if anyone says that combining ...e6 and ...c6 against 1.e4 is a total nonsense  , you will call him engine hater.

    So what exactly do you want?To accept any nonsense the engine suggests without thinking and without any objection?

          By the way , Triangle Caro French is not analogous of Triangle Slav because they are very different for the same reason that Benoni and Sicilian Dragon(both have c5-d6-Nf6-g6-Bg7 and main plan the advance of the b-pawn) are not analogous but very different.

         Chess can't be explained or understood with mathematical numbers and geometrical shapes when one has absolutely no idea what the move 1...c6(or 1...e6) does against 1.e4. 

         Unfortunately for you , answers in chess are never easy.

  • #5

    DeirdreSkye: Are U able to say something interesting, constructive or funny? or U, like a little dog, will bark at anything that I post ?!? tongue.png Suggested by engines or not, this Triangle Caro-French is not the best but still a quite reasonable system.

  • #6
    Yigor wrote:

    DeirdreSkye: Are U able to say something interesting, constructive or funny? or U, like a little dog, will bark at anything that I post ?!? Suggested by engines or not, this Triangle Caro-French is not the best but still a quite reasonable system.

       There is nothing reasonable in playing both ...c6 and  ...e6.

    The point of ...e6 is to attack the centre fast.

    The point of ...c6 is to develop Bc8 first and then attack the centre.

    So one cancels the other.That makes them together highly unreasonable.

         So other than the engine evaluation, have you any arguments that show that Triangle Caro French is reasonable?

    I have seen none till now but I still hope that you actually have something and you are not just an engine muppet. 

  • #7
    DeirdreSkye wrote:

    There is nothing reasonable in playing both ...c6 and  ...e6.

    The point of ...e6 is to attack the centre fast.

    The point of ...c6 is to develop Bc8 first and then attack the centre.

    So one cancels the other.That makes them together highly unreasonable.

     

    Your reasoning would imply that Semi-Slav has no sense too. blitz.png

  • #8
    DeirdreSkye wrote:

    I have seen none till now but I still hope that you actually have something and you are not just an engine muppet. 

     

    Why do U even care about that and think about my chess skills ?!? I have the right to use engines for opening preparation. Concentrate yourself on your own performance!

  • #9
    Yigor wrote:
    DeirdreSkye wrote:

    There is nothing reasonable in playing both ...c6 and  ...e6.

    The point of ...e6 is to attack the centre fast.

    The point of ...c6 is to develop Bc8 first and then attack the centre.

    So one cancels the other.That makes them together highly unreasonable.

     

     

    Your reasoning would imply that Semi-Slav has no sense too.

    You don't even pay attention.In post 2  I said that Semi Slav and Caro French are as different as apples and giraffes.

         In Semi Slav Black is not interested to  develop the bishop outside the pawn structure and he is not in the need to attack White's pawn structure since there is not an early advance of the white e-pawn to e5.In French defense Black must attack white's pawn structure or he will find himself struggling for counterplay and space and in Caro Kan the attack on white's delay because Black develops first Bc8 in a good position.Black plays the same moves in Caro French and Semi Slav but the demands of the positions are very different as the white pawns are in different positions.

          The same happens with Benoni and Sicilian Dragon.A lot of same moves(c5-d6-Nf6-g6-Bg7) but very different openings.

    You have to bypass the geometrical shape and see deeper in the position.Geometry and numbers can't explain chess you need more than that.

     

  • #10

    So, what does your engine evaluate the position after 4Ne7 because my copy of Fritz 13 already gives this as 0.77 to White i.e. not that good. 

  • #11
    repac3161 wrote:

    So, what does your engine evaluate the position after 4Ne7 because my copy of Fritz 13 already gives this as 0.77 to White i.e. not that good. 

     

    Stockfish 8 on lichess evaluates it at+0.4 (1 line, d=23, Cloud).

  • #12
    intermediatedinoz wrote:

    if you download stockfish, which I did a couple of years ago, not using it right now, at 30+ level the French is best, according to stockfish obviously, Caro is nowhere near

     

    Yeah, that's right. wink.png

  • #13

    The local Stockfish evaluates the position on the diagram at +0.3 (d=24, 1 line).

  • #14

    not the best of openings in my opinion

  • #15

    I have two main problems with this "Triangle-Caro-French" opening:

    1) The point of playing 1...c6 is to defend the 2...d5 pawn instead of defending it with ...e6, allowing you to develop your "bad" QB to f5 or g4 before blocking it in with ...e6.  So why are you now blocking in your QB if you bothered to play ...c6?

    2) The typical counterattack in the Advance Variation's of the Caro or the French begins with ...c5. The tradeoff in the Caro is that you have to take 2 moves to get that pawn to c5 in exchange for getting your QB developed early.  In the French you are stuck with a poorly developed QB but play ...c5 in one move.  In this opening you get the worst of both worlds: you need two moves to play ...c5 and you still have your QB stuck behind your pawns.

  • #16

    so u transpose into this advance variation :

    Ne7 why not, but c6 at this point... Then c5 later i guess?cry.png

    A bit of common sense...

     

  • #17
    DeirdreSkye έγραψε:

     

    You have to bypass the geometrical shape and see deeper in the position.Geometry and numbers can't explain chess you need more than that.

     

    I'm sorry to inform you that arguing with an idiot will lead you nowhere.

  • #18

    What is the point? This is just a Caro kann but you've blocked off your light square bishop 

  • #19

    Thanks to MickinMD and IM poucin for good and relevant critics of this opening. happy.png

  • #20

    Lol , You are funny Yigor.

    MickinMD is a very knowledgeable player with an understanding of chess much higher than his rating and of course IMPoucin is always useful and his help very much appreciated by all of us.

         Still what they said is something even 1200 kids know and something it has been already said in many comments.

      Let me remind you because seems that your memory is extremely weak:

    Comment 1

    Yes , let's talk concretly.

    All  GMs(at least the top ones) have engines and powerful computers and obviously they saw it still rejected it and noone employed it(not even in blitz).

            Let's be more concrete.There is no point at all to play 1...c6 and 2...e6 since you get a bad Caro Kan or a  bad French if you eventually play ...d5.And if you don't play ...d5 what will you do?.K-side fiancheto will lead to bad Modern , and any ...Nf6 attempt will lead to bad Alekhine's defense and that's pretty much all Black's reasonable options.

           Since you are proud about your on line rating even 1200 FIDE rated kids know that 1.e4 c6 2.d4 e6 can't be good and it doesn't really need deep understanding.Any player with common sense would smile and ignore the move or show it as an example why engine evaluations on early moves can't be trusted.

     

    Comment 2 from  m_n0

    The whole point of 1...c6 is to play 2...d5 without blocking in the c8 Bishop, at the cost of a tempo on ...c5. Playing ...e6 immediately after ...c6 undoes that benefit and is likely to leave Black a tempo down in a French.

    Comment 3 from ThrillerFan

    Post 6 is exactly right!  It's total [email protected]!  I play both the French and the Caro-Kann in over the board tournaments.  Anybody that plays this garbage has no clue of the reasoning behind the Caro-Kann versus the French, and is accepting the downside of both defenses!

    Your answer in these 3 was vert=y relevant and constructive.

    This is a primitive thinking and any strong engine will demolish U. grin.png

    and

    Yeah, as always, U are full of empty words having no real meaning.

    Comment 4 from chesssdotcomv3sucks

    Another..."The engine says this is a good second move" post.  

    The move sucks.  It defeats the whole purpose of playing 1...c6.  

    Where is the LSB Bishop going?

    Why isnt black challenging the center?

    Another example of wayyy to much emphasis being placed on engine analysis.  At tournaments, i dont play engines, i play people.  

    and you answer:

    Just play 3... d5 and U will challenge the center. U think just in 1 ply blitz.pngblitz.pngblitz.png and U pretend to have better ideas than an engine ?!? Sorry but U demonstrate the highest degree of silliness.

    and

    Yeah, unfortunately for U, 2...e6 makes the perfect sense. blitz.pngblitz.pngblitz.png It prepares 3...d5 better than 1...c6 alone.

    and

    I'd like that engine haters show all their silliness.

          So everybody that said what MickinMD and IMPoucin said was accused as silly in the highest degree and engine hater and you were the one without any relevant or constructive comments insisting that 1...c6 and 2...e6 makes perfect sense because it makes perfect sense in Semi Slav.

      What changed?

    You just want to admit that you were saying nonsense all this time and you don't know how?

     

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