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# Van geet= Scandinavian Reversed?

• #1

I am now practicing scandinavian qd6 because I am so horrified with 1...e5?????

The van geet seems to be a unusual opening (1.Nc3) but I couldn't find any way for black to punish white. If 1...c5, 2. e4 brings us to the grand prix. If 1...d5 2. d4 brings us to the Veresov. If 1...e5 2. e4 gives us standard vienna. But what about 1.Nc3 e5 2.d4!? which is a scandinavian reversed. Any ideas on the position? Feel free to tell me what you think of the position (if there are any refutations I am missing) and thank you for all your comments on my previous forum.

• #2

1.Nc3: white develops a piece to a natural square. There is no way he can be worse after this logical move; you shouldn't fear hidden "refutations". 1.Nc3 is sometimes used by strong players as a way to trick black into some trasposition to selected 1.e4 variations (in return black has some interesting extra options of course).

2.d4!? in your line must be 100% playable, but i doubt it's best. I'm not a scandinavian expert and you likely know it's tipical themes better than i do, but i think Nc3 is not the ideal extra move on a scandinavian setup. In the scandinavian Qa5 lines (2...exd4 3.Qxd4 Nc6 4.Qa4 here) black usually plays c6 to retreat the queen along the a5-d8 diagonal. In many lines instead Nc6?? is a losing blunder which allows white to trap the queen. By analogy i wonder if 4.Qa4 in this reversed line might prove risky due to white's extra move. Also in the Qd6 scandinavian i think c6 is usually played. So the question is whether the extra tempo allows white a completely different plan (in this case the variation might be very good and interesting) or not (in this second case having Nc3 in might be a burden rather than an help).

• #3

The idea of the Scandinavian is to play a Caro-Kann type game.  A thematic move in the Scandinavian is ...c6.  If you want to play a reversed Scandinavian then you will want to play c3.  It is hard to play c3 if the knight is on that square.

• #4

With 2.d4 White punishes himself. As was already said, in a Scandinavian setup, he should absolutely be able to play c3. I'd say that 2...exd4 3.Qxd4 Nc6 equalizes.

• #5

Thank you all for your warnings. I guess I won't be playing this!

• #6

Nc6 in the Scandinavian actually makes much sense, when white has committed himself to d2-d4 (pressure against d4). Not the case here.

He said that against 1...d5 he has in mind the Veresov, but in that case, why not start with 1.d4?

• #7

1.Nc3 has been played even by Ivanchuk so there can be any refutation that he doesn't know about it.The move is very reasonable and it is indeed weird why it has never been accepted as a good alternative choice to the usual (1.e4 , 1.d4 ,1.c4 ,1.Nf3).Even the rather irrational 1.g4 is played more(in databases 1.Nc3 appears to be played more than 1.g4 or 1.b4 but usually it transposes , very few play it as an independent opening, much fewer than 1.b4 or even 1.g4)

As for your question , it has been already answered and more than adequately. I only have to suggest that you try 2.Nf3(after 1.Nc3 e5).Seems very interesting.

• #8

# You could try playing an inverse opening with 1.d3 e5 2.d4 and reacha Scandinavian position from the White side. But your opponent maynot necessarily play 1...e5.Best RegardsDarthMusashi

• #9

Statistically, black does better in the Scandinavian with 3...Nf6. So if you want go for a reverse set-up for white, you should prepare d4 with 2.Nf3, with one possible continuation such as:

• #10

Statistically black does better in 2...Qxd5 than in 2...Nf6 but these stats  mean nothing(you need to do more carefull research to draw safe results from these numbers, they usually  lie ).Maybe the most important is that the 4 experts of Scandinavian(Sergey Tiviakov, Eric Prie , Ian Rogers and Miodrag Savic) prefer 2...Qxd5.That must mean something.

• #11

The last looks like tending toward a trasposition to some scotch line rather than a scnadinavian-like position . However 4...Nxe4?! looks like a rather bad move. I mean, "let's bring the opponent queen to an excellent central post where it's not so easy to attack her while exchanging my only developed piece". No doubt with careful play black must be solid, but this can't be black's best. better must be 4...Nf6 with a likely trasposition to a scotch four knights after 5.e4 (5.Nxc6 is an unpopular line of the scotch).

• #12

Yes, as far as i know 2...Qxd5 is the trusted move at the hightest levels.

• #13

There is quite alot of independant theory on 1.Nc3, after ...d5 2.e4 is the "Nc3 move" and after e5 it is indeeed 2.Nf3 that is the common move, if you wanna stay in Nc3 lines. And just as bresando pointed out, it leads into Scotch(isch) positions.

• #14

1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 de4 3.Nxe4 Nd7 (3...Bf5 should also be fine) and Black is playing a sort of Caro Kann where he might not have to play ...c7-c6 at all.

• #15
[COMMENT DELETED]
• #16
bresando wrote:

The last looks like tending toward a trasposition to some scotch line rather than a scnadinavian-like position . However 4...Nxe4?! looks like a rather bad move. I mean, "let's bring the opponent queen to an excellent central post where it's not so easy to attack her while exchanging my only developed piece". No doubt with careful play black must be solid, but this can't be black's best. better must be 4...Nf6 with a likely trasposition to a scotch four knights after 5.e4 (5.Nxc6 is an unpopular line of the scotch).

I'm not saying 2.Nf3 wins or anything. I'm saying that if the OP is striving for a reversed type of Scandinavian set-up, this is one logical way to go about it. Overall, regardless of whatever set-up white ends up with, 2.Nf3 is probably way better than 2.d4!? And you're right, 4...Nxd4 (your "4...Nxe4" is a typo, I think) is a bad move for black. But that's why 2.Nf3 is good. By analogy with the Scandinavian, where white routinely allows the capture 2...Qxd5 and black gets a good game, here it doesn't work for black. After 4.Nxd4, Nf6 is much better for black. But then the simple 5.Bg5 is quite dangerous for black.

• #17

Of course 2.Nf3 is a nice move, leading to balanced and interestinmg positions. Only i don't think there is something particularly scandinavian-like in these lines. But i agree with your suggestion and i would play 2.Nf3 myself after 1.Nc3 e5.

• #18

Another interesting line in the Van Geet is the move 1.Nc3 d5 2.Nf3
and black can play 2...d4 attacking the N at c3. White then has
3.Ne4. I call this the White Knights Fandango.

Another possibility in the Van Geet is a transposition into the Keoni-Hiva
Gambit 1.e3 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 and White proceeds to sac
the rest of the pawns at e3 & d2 to complete White's development
quickly and setup for a Kingside attack. I wrote an article on the Keoni
Hiva Gambit at Chessville in my column "The Search for Dragons &
Mythical Chess Openings. In this case you would play 1.Nc3 e5 2.e3 Nf6
3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3.

Also possible is the Colorado Gambit 1.Nc3 e5 2.f4 with the same
idea as in the Keoni-Hiva Gambit where you sac the pawns at f4, e3
and d2. You would only be down 2 pawns. However you would have
fantastic attacking chances in a wide open game.

The move 1.Nc3 is highly transpositional in nature and can play into
many more opening lines.

Best Regards
DarthMusashi

• #19

Sample game White Knights Fandango:

• #20

Sample game White Knights Fandango in pgn format.

[Event "White Knights Fandango"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Nakamura"]
[Black "MChess Pro 3.5      7/4/96"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A06"]
[WhiteElo "2090"]
[Annotator "User"]
[PlyCount "38"]
[EventDate "1996.??.??"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. Nc3 {[White plays the White Knights Fandango. I have played a number of blitz games with the Two Knights Tango from the Black side, so it was quite possible that such an opening could exist from the White side.]} d4 3. Ne4 e5 4. e3 Nc6 5. Bc4 dxe3 6. fxe3 Na5 \$2 {[6...Na5 is an error. Better was 6...f5.]} 7. Bxf7+ \$1 Kxf7 8. Nxe5+ Ke6 9. O-O Nh6 {[Black cannot play 9...Kxe5 since 10.b4 is a very strong reply.]} 10. b4 \$1 {[A very strong move. The pawn sac activates my B on the long diagonal.} Bxb4 11. Bb2 b6 12. Qh5 \$1 Bxd2 \$2 13. Ng5+ Ke7 14. Rf7+ Kd6 15. Rd1 Kc5 16. Rxd2 Qxd2 17. Ne4+ Kb4 18. Nxd2 Kb5 19. Qe2+ Kb4 {[MChess Pro 3.5 resigns at this point. I really have never ever seen MChess Pro resign a game.]} 1-0

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