What to pair with the Trompowsky?

Sort:
Suvorov84

Like many class players, I've spent an inordinate amount of my study time on openings.  However, over the past month, I've decided to just stick with a few openings and keep at them for a long time.  On the Black side, I chose the Najdorf, NID and QID.  On the White side, I wanted to play something low theory and that doesnt necessarily lead to much more than equality, since I'm well aware that the Najdorf and NID is high theory and will take a lot of time to learn.  So after 1 d4, I chose the Trompowsky against 1...Nf6, since after going through some Hodgson games I found that it looks interesting and dynamic.  However, I looked at the "pseudo-trompowsky" against 1...d5 (1.d4 d5 2.Bg5) and it seems like Black is getting an awfully easy game.  So my question is: for those who play the Tromp against 1...Nf6, what would you recommend aside from the pseudo-tromp against 1...d5?  I've thought about going for a 1.d4 2.c4 repertoire for that, but I'm not sure how harmonious that would be with the Tromp in the event of transpositions.  Thanks for any help!

Grindwriter

Stick with d4/c4.  Play for lines that focus on an early e4 as best you can, to keep in the Tromp "Full speed ahead" spirit.  Which probably means the French against e6.  And settling for the QGD exchange.  Maybe pair with the Geller in the Slav, which is maybe not optimal, but is at least as sound as the Tromp, anyway, and finish off with the e4 QGA, the Marshall to ward off the Noteboom, and maybe the Botvinnik semi.  It sounds theory intensive, but once you get the idea that you're playing to advance in the center, most of these can be played strategically without going too far astray.

Alternatively, maybe the Veresov.

GreenCastleBlock

Play the Veresov.  1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 is quite legit, you can look at Hector and Morozevich for examples of top players who use it.  The current fashion is to play a very quick Qd3 and O-O-O, but that's not the only way it can be played.

After the typical 2...Nf6 3.Bg5, sometimes Tromp positions can be reached, although there are several unique lines you need to know.  The most difficult for White is supposed to be 3...Nbd7 which I believe was Fischer's choice, but 3...Bf5 is probably the most common.  I'll tell you up front, if Black has meaningful preparation you will not get a significant advantage with White, but you seem to be OK with that.

After 2...e6 or 2...c6 you can play 3.e4 if you like to play against the French or Caro Kann.

After 2...f5 there are various Anti-Dutches available to you, like 3.Bg5 or 3.e4.

After 2...Nc6 3.e4 We reach a position that we could have gotten from 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3.  If 3...dxe4 White plays 4.d5 with advantage.

I think 2...Bf5 is an interesting move order, because 3.f3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 reaches the mainline of the 3...Bf5 Veresov, but White does not have the possibility of taking on f6 on move 4, inflicting structural damage like in a Tromp.  However White can maybe avoid Bg5 and just chase Black's bishop: 3.f3 Nf6 4.g4 Bg6 5.h4 - it doesn't look like fundamentally sound chess but White is okay here.

After 2...c5 I've never had a problem with 3.e4! (and if 3...dxe4 4.d5 continue in Albin style)  If Black wants to play with an early ...c5 advance he should play 2...Nf6 3.Bg5 c5, but as a Tromp player this is a variation you should enjoy.

lolhaiderlol

Play the KIA against everything.



ghostofmaroczy

really great post, GreenCastleBlock.

suvorov84, If you fall in love with the Veresov, then you might even find yourself going 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3.

Suvorov84

Thank you all for your posts.  I actually looked at the Veresov before the Tromp, and liked the look of it, but was unable to find many good resources on it.  The best I've found is Davies book (Lakdawala's book (A Ferocious Chess Opening Repertoire) looks mediocre and has mixed reviews).  Any other suggestions on Veresov resources?  

ghostofmaroczy

Eric Prie used to do detailed work on d-pawn specials, but not anymore.  Given the limited resources on the Veresov, Nigel Davies book is your best option.  At least you can take comfort in the knowledge that your opponents will be in the dark too.

chessterd5

ok. if you are looking for less theory to pair with the Trompovski, there is the London, the Veresov, the KIA, or the Colle.

Since you like the Trompovski, you can look into the Torre Attack as well. it's just a different way of playing Bg5 as white against Nf6.

if you play d4,c4, and Nc3 you will have to face everything that black can play. definitely theory intensive.

word of experience in regards to the Najdorf, NID, and QID.

a) I have never played the QID. I can give no advice except that Tigran Petrosian played it. so study some of his games.

b) The Najdorf: it's wonderful! but there's no guarantee that you will play it. white has options referred to as anti-sicilians. like the closed Sicilian, the Smith morra, and the Aladin.

b) The NID is good. sometimes it is too good. which is why white plays Nf3 instead of Nc3. if this move is chosen, you will need to know the Bogo Indian. But since you like playing the QID it fits in to your repertoire.

Ethan_Brollier

2. Nf3. Either Black plays 2… Nf6 allowing the Trompowsky again or you can play a positional variation against anything else.

ThrillerFan
Ethan_Brollier wrote:

2. Nf3. Either Black plays 2… Nf6 allowing the Trompowsky again or you can play a positional variation against anything else.

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5?! is NOT the Trompowsky. It is a bad version of the Torre Attack.

Black gets a very good game with 3...Ne4!, and no, this is NOT a transposition to the 2...Ne4 Trompowsky.

The difference? In the Trompowsky, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4, after 3.Bf4 or 3.Bh4, the Knight on e4 is not stable and White can play f3 at any point.

In the Torre, White's Knight is on f3, which makes f3 impossible and the Knight is stable on e4.

The Torre only works against 1...Nf6/2...g6 and 1...Nf6/2...e6. It is no good against 1...d5 or 1...Nf6/2...d5.

I would suggest either 2.c4 or 2.Bf4 against 1...d5. The London works best against 1...d5. The fools that think the London can be played against everything will never be good at chess. They will have seen only one pawn structure, and be playing a weak opening against certain lines.

The London System is bad against the Modern Defense and equal AT BEST for White against the Kings Indian setup or other ...d6 defenses. Playing the London against a ...d6 defense is like playing 2.Bc4 against the French.

putshort
Wow. Green Castle Block great analysis!
crazedrat1000

here are the options I think make the most sense... each have different pros and cons, you should probably choose based on what you're trying to get out of the opening and what your goals are as a player- 
1: QGD, exchange variation - alot of black players avoid the QGD just due to this variation, that should tell you how strong of a variation this is. Although it's very theoretical the moves are also very forcing, so it's not a very large opening. The main downside to it is it's very commonly played, and there's not alot of room to innovate in it. But despite that white just has a significant advantage regardless, so... if you want a straightfoward plan that will just win you games I'd recommend this line. Another downside is you can't transpose from the trompowsky into these lines, unlike the QGD modern or the veresov. 
2: QGD, modern defense - a big upside is you can transpose into this from the trompowsky via the trompowsky's 2... d5 and 2... e6 3. e3 move orders, this will really throw 1... Nf6 players for a loop since 75% of them avoid the QGD. It's a very traditional opening with a rich history, and a good way of learning opening principles... it's a very large opening, and highly theoretical. So you should be willing to really study your lines if you want to play it. The opening is based on very sound chess principles, which makes it different than the veresov, and white retains an engine advantage throughout the lines. Biggest downside I think is black often knows the lines very well, possibly better than you know them, and although there's more room for creativity and variety compared with the QGD exchange you also don't have the same edge in all the lines. 
3: richter-veresov attack - this is my favorite. Firstly, there are alot of transpositions between the veresov and the trompowsky. For example... 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 d5 3. Nc3 - and you're in the starting position of the veresov. But that's just one, there are opportunities for transposition in most lines. Also, since you're playing the chigorin (1. d4 d5 2. Nc3) you'll need to learn the french, burn variation and the trompowsky can transpose into that too. 
the veresov is a very attacking opening, it's not an opening you play for an engine advantage... it will certainly throw off your opponents, and there's a ton of room for creativity in the opening. There are still lines early in the opening that haven't been played on lichess, for example ... and many veresov positions can get completely chaotic, which... as you're climbing in level this is a good thing, you want to find dynamic play where you can. Overall both the veresov and the trompowsky share a certain pioneering spirit. 
Another nice thing about playing the chigorin + trompowsky is you actually sidestep the slav / semi-slav and QGD entirely, along with the nimzo indian, benoni, KID, grunfeld... you name it. 
Downside of this opening is it's very complicated and you need to be comfortable playing positions where black has a slight engine advantage. Another downside is the veresov is a very large opening, and it requires pretty precise play in alot of circumstances. 
4: colle - it's a simpler option than the veresov, will still throw off most opponents ... but there are just some lines that are very good for black, so it's not played that often. But if you know the lines better than your opponent this might not be a problem.

Toldsted

I used to pair the Tromp with London, before it was played by everybody (Larsen wrote a great book on it in Danish back around 1980). It became a bit boring, so I swiched to Queen's Gambit with focus on taking the centre with e4, when possible (inspired by Schandorff's book). That works fine.

WCPetrosian

The publisher New In Chess has a book pairing the London with the Tromp. https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/9143.pdf