Why does the dutch hase so low wining history

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pps

Hi have played a lot of games with the dutch stonewall varition and won a lot but when i  see on sites like chessgames or 365chess it's 44% white 23% black and draws are the rest but why

GreedyPawnGrabber

Cause you cannot survive with it at high level. It works well against beginners though...

Wawrinkaz

also take note that the games on chessgames, 365chess, chess.com database or chessbase are all for the most part standard time control tournament games. 

pps

no the dutch is opening were you close the center i am a torment player against d4 i play albin counter gambit and grunfeld my rating is 1800 i just started torments a year ago but they aren't so often in my countrey 10 a year and i have won against players 2100 on club tornements (club tornements aren't rated there is no specile rating for them don't get me wrong) and the openning was the dutch defence in grunfeld shortest lost in his professinola corirere was with the dutch 12 moves i not here to talk about how good it but why lose precentege so low and the lenigard the one i think is stupid has a big win percentege.But why 

SmyslovFan
GreedyPawnGrabber wrote:

Cause you cannot survive with it at high level. It works well against beginners though...

I know there are some who will argue that Hikaru Nakamura is a not "at high level", but he's in the top ten in the world and he has successfully used the Dutch against Kramnik and others. 

I like Yusupov's comment, the problem with the Dutch is that Black often wants to play f5-f7.

ThrillerFan

The other problem with the Dutch is that the vast majority don't know how to play it.  Going into a game saying "I'm going to play the Stonewall if he plays 1.d4" or "I'm going to play the Leningrad if he plays 1.d4" or "I'm going to play the Classical if he plays 1.d4" is completely and utterly stupid!

Take the Stonewall player (This would be me whenever I go thru a Dutch Stint).  An intelligent Stonewall player will only play the Stonewall when the position calls for it.  In each of the following lines, Black is significantly worse:

1) 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 d5? (Black should play 4...Bb4 - White now has 5.Bf4!)
2) 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.c4 d5? (Black should play 4...c6 - White now has 5.Nh3!)
3) 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.Nh3 d5? (Black should play a Classical Dutch setup)

Classical Dutch players often make the mistake of playing an early e6 against the English.  After 1.c4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2, why play e6?  Play e5 and d6.

Leningrad Dutch players often make the mistake of playing g6 too early in certain move orders.  For example:

1.d4 f5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 g6? (3...d6 4.Nf3 g6 should be preferred) 4.h4! h6 (4...Bg7? 5.Qf3!) 5.Nc3 d6 (Again, 5...Bg7 is a mistake, 6.Qf3!)

Also, many Leningrad players stereotype their moves and always play, say, d6.  Aganst 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3, the best move is 2...d5, whether Black likes it or not.

GMs don't play it because at their level, there are far safer options, and 99 times out of 100, a GM is happy to take a draw against another GM when they have Black, and try to use their Whites to win games.

TetsuoShima
SmyslovFan wrote:
GreedyPawnGrabber wrote:

Cause you cannot survive with it at high level. It works well against beginners though...

I know there are some who will argue that Hikaru Nakamura is a not "at high level", but he's in the top ten in the world and he has successfully used the Dutch against Kramnik and others. 

I like Yusupov's comment, the problem with the Dutch is that Black often wants to play f5-f7.

lol??

pps
TetsuoShima wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:
GreedyPawnGrabber wrote:

Cause you cannot survive with it at high level. It works well against beginners though...

I know there are some who will argue that Hikaru Nakamura is a not "at high level", but he's in the top ten in the world and he has successfully used the Dutch against Kramnik and others. 

I like Yusupov's comment, the problem with the Dutch is that Black often wants to play f5-f7.

lol??

i am a strong player how plays the dutch stone wall and f5-f7 is normal to play in the dutch because if they play f5-f7 they do it to expende on the king side .notes (castle on the king side for black,castle for white on the king side no  danger ) when the center is closed a attack on the wings is used.And hikamuru hikamura is in the top ten normally his a strong player and he is known for his tactics unlike magnus how has gift. 

pps

here is grunfeld shortest lost and i ask why does the dutch have so low win percentage i am not asking is it stupid or not 

kikvors

Wow, cool trap to know about. That could have been me playing white...

SmyslovFan
pps wrote:
TetsuoShima wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:
GreedyPawnGrabber wrote:

Cause you cannot survive with it at high level. It works well against beginners though...

I know there are some who will argue that Hikaru Nakamura is a not "at high level", but he's in the top ten in the world and he has successfully used the Dutch against Kramnik and others. 

I like Yusupov's comment, the problem with the Dutch is that Black often wants to play f5-f7.

lol??

i am a strong player how plays the dutch stone wall and f5-f7 is normal to play in the dutch because if they play f5-f7 they do it to expende on the king side .notes (castle on the king side for black,castle for white on the king side no  danger ) when the center is closed a attack on the wings is used.And hikamuru hikamura is in the top ten normally his a strong player and he is known for his tactics unlike magnus how has gift. 

Ummm....

blueemu

I prefer the Pseudo-Dutch (a Nimzo variant) to the Dutch proper.

Here's an old game of mine from that line:



InfiniteFlash
ThrillerFan wrote:

 

1) 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 d5? Black should play 4...Bb4 : I agee with this.


2) 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.c4 d5? Black should play 4...c6 - The nh3 systems are something ive never struggled against, but the classical dutch offers the best chances  against this move order, I agree. the question mark after d5 is dumb though.


3) 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.Nh3 d5? (Black should play a Classical Dutch setup) Nh3 is not a big deal imo. why are you giving this a question mark? this is a main line, d5 that is. a lot of people play d5  and prefer that against the nh3 stuff. 

 

TetsuoShima
blueemu wrote:

I prefer the Pseudo-Dutch (a Nimzo variant) to the Dutch proper.

Here's an old game of mine from that line:

 



nice

pps

no dutch players don't play f5 early i entered when then playit here is a game were  the opponent plays f5 on 14 move and black developse a attack on the king side.

but why does the dutch have a 20% more losing percentege

blueemu
pps wrote:

but why does the dutch have a 20% more losing percentege

One reason is that few top-level GMs play it as their main weapon as Black. Instead, the Dutch is often played by players hoping to take their (White) opponent out of his preparation. That means that it is often played by the lower-rated player of a pair, and often by a player without much experience in these lines. After all... a "surprise weapon" is usually not the line that you've studied the most.

pps

i am sory i meant f5-f4

JM3000

"Cause you cannot survive with it at high level. It works well against beginners though..."

"GMs don't play it..."

Malaniuk and Moslalenko are good examples of Grand Masters then use the dutch as their main weapon against d4.  

In my opinion the dutch is risky but isn't bad.  

blake78613

The Dutch loses a lot of games because many players launch inadequately supplied kingside attacks, relying only on their Queen, king's rook, King's knight and kingside pawns.   In the hands of a competent player such as Botvinnik, Bronstein, or Nigel Short, the Dutch can hold its own.

pfren
CPT_Morgan wrote:

Vassily Ivanchuk plays it. 

The hard part is finding an opening Ivanchuk does NOT play.