Oh powers that be, please implement this...

StinkingHyena

I like the puzzles specifically the tactics. But one thing I would love (and I have never seen on another sight) is for the same to be done for positional chess. Stuff like sacking a pawn for a knight outpost that dominates, or exchanging a rook for a knight, etc. The test would be the that is that the move/moves lead to a significant centipawn difference, but unlike the tactics puzzles the material balance wouldn’t necessarily be in your favor.

Think about it, you know you like it. And what a wonderful contribution, improving that aspect of chess most lacking. And if anyone can do it chess.com can (is that enough groveling?)

ghost_of_pushwood

Well, if the balance isn't necessarily in your favor...what's the point?

StinkingHyena

Material balance isn’t necessarily in you favor. For example, you chuck a pawn to create an outpost for a knight, your down a pawn, but the position evaluates now as much better for you. Or say you trade a rook for a knight and a center pawn, again down material but positionly you may better off. Not sure if I am being clear.

StinkingHyena

This is the kind of thing I’m thinking of (aagaard example). There is a series that leads to a favorable position for white, but not one based on an immediate material advantage.

StinkingHyena

In a similar vein replies can be missed. I was so proud of myself for sacking the exchange for a bishop, so I could plant a knight deep into my much higher rated players position. I was equally chagrined when he spent all of 30 seconds on the move and simply exchanged his rook for the knight, returning the material and proceeded to mop the board with me.

batgirl

Or you could start a positional sacrifice thread in the forums and encourage others to post problems apropos to the title.  Of course you'll have the problem of getting the requisite nonsense spam that no one really want to see, but you might also get some other type of problems too.... chess problems.

StinkingHyena

Doesn’t necessarily have to be a sacrifice (the above example isn’t) more like ‘positional tactics’ for lack of a worse name. It would be great if chess.com implemented something like that, I assume that they scrape games for their tactics puzzles, wouldn’t take much to modify that algorithm.

definitely_not_me

I suspect the problem with this sort of thing is that tactics puzzles, the way chess.com does them, can really only have one answer in order to work. it's a lot harder to find abstract positional puzzles where this is the case. Often if there are no explicit tactics or winning lines, there are many moves which either lead to the same position or at least all create a similar advantage. Would be harder to implement with the current system than you'd think. Plus I'd question how much could be learned from this sort of puzzle. Seems quite easy here to make a sound but incorrect move, be shown the right move and still not understand why it's better (much rarer in tactics where 9/10 times the forcing line is immediately and obviously winning once you see it). Or get a problem right but for the wrong reasons.

StinkingHyena

The goal is the same as in tactics puzzles, obtain a significant advantage. Take a look at the above puzzle, with white to play there is only one line that leads to anything more than a slight white advantage.

And granted, the puzzles are more difficult, not least because we look at positions tactically first, but the benefit would be enormous. Teaching players positional skills, something I believe is lacking in a large set of the chess population (myself included).

jdcannon

"But one thing I would love (and I have never seen on another sight) is for the same to be done for positional chess. Stuff like sacking a pawn for a knight outpost that dominates, or exchanging a rook for a knight, etc"

 

We have had this feature for a long time  

https://www.chess.com/drills

StinkingHyena

I have done a number of the drills which are you talking about?

jdcannon

They are like puzzles but for types of positional advantages that you were asking for. 

StinkingHyena

I’m thinking of something a bit different, in the drills you basically take a position with an advantage then play against the computer. Here is what I am thinking.

1) Position is roughly equal, until last move was played. (Like the last move you see in chess tactics)

2) The is now only one line that give a sizable positional advantage. That is the solution. Positional advantage being defined as one based on the relative position of the pieces not the sum of material.

In the above example I posted the only solution is Bxf7 followed by Qd5 and finally exd5. At that point it’s a positionally won game. Whites rook will infiltrate to a7, his knight now has the e4 square. Meanwhile blacks pieces have all but thrown in the towel. The engine evaluates it as roughly +3.

 

The closest I have seen on chess.com was a series of Silman annotated games. Those were/are wonderful, but they aren’t really set up in a problem format and don’t focus solely on position.

 

Ziryab

Have you tried chess books?

ghost_of_pushwood

Or even heard of them?

StinkingHyena

OMG! thank you sooo much guys! The response to asking for a feature to be implemented on chess.com, is to realize the solution is in book! (that is sarcasm tongue.png).

I would gently point out that the entirety of chess.com has an analog version...

Ziryab
StinkingHyena wrote:

OMG! thank you sooo much guys! The response to asking for a feature to be implemented on chess.com, is to realize the solution is in book! (that is sarcasm ).

I would gently point out that the entirety of chess.com has an analog version...

 

jdcannon wrote:

They [drills] are like puzzles but for types of positional advantages that you were asking for. 

 

ghost_of_pushwood

I love it when people point out that sarcasm is sarcasm!

Nwap111

While you wait for chess.com or any other site to create what you are talking about, you might want to examine Positional Chess Handbook, By Israel Gelfer .  A lot of work but worth it, covering numerous positional ideas, which do not always involve sacrifices.