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2 bishops vs Knight Endgame

  • #81
    EndgameStudy έγραψε:

    How many Pawns does it take to draw, and WIN against 2 knights?


    I think 2 knights can beat up to 4 pawns. Not sure if 5 pawns is a draw or a win for the 2 knights, depending on how advanced the pawns are and the position of the knights. In the position shown above, it said White mates in 146 moves. I'm assuming the 1st move is Nxa7 to eliminate that pawn, so after, is it 145? It said it was from the "Lomonosov" Tablebases

    - The one and only move to win is 1.Ke4

    -Who would care about that? Quite obviously, noone.

     

  • #82

    I'm changing the topic, but my questions resulted from the original post idea that the 50-move rule should be changed because tablebases show some endgames require more than 50 moves.

    1.  What value are tablebases?  Yes, someone has calculated the minimum number of moves required for mate if both sides play the best move, but how likely is that to happen?

    2.  My research shows that from 1928 to 1992 FIDE did allow exceptions to the rule.  For some reason, they reverted to 50 moves with no exceptions, but the basis for the change is not given.  Anyone know why the change was made?

  • #83

    The 50 move rule shouldn't exist AT ALL. 50 moves, 100 moves, 1,000 Moves...etc. There should just be a time limit (not an increment, a delay). People say: "what if the layers get tired and don't want ot keep playing. Well then don't get into the losing side of a won endgame. Of course he's gonna try to win. He knows he can win. A won endgame shouldn't be declared a draw just because the opponent doesn't want to sit there for 100 moves defending. You know when you enter a tournament the games can be grueling. I'm not talking about queen vs queen endgame where they just make random moves trying to flag each other. Endgames like 2 Bishops vs Knight, the 2 bishops can win, so they should be able to and not given a move limit.

  • #84

    Possibly a more interesting example than in #75:

    Black to play wins

    whereas:

    Black to play draws

     
     

    Unfortunately, to play this kind of position you have to be able to assess accurately which KNNKQ positions are won and which are drawn before you get to them, which I, at any rate, find difficult.

  • #85

    @EndgameStudy, arguing it here isn't going to do any good. You need to petition the USCF and/or FIDE. Though, it is very unlikely they are going to ever switch to a system where the game can just keep going on until the time runs out, mate happens, draw is finally agreed to because the player can't find the line, etc.

     

    And if it ever does come to allowing the longer mates, say hello to adjournments again and most players won't have time for that, outside of the top events.

  • #86

     There are reasons that rues exist.  They can range anywhere from "that's the way the people in power want it" to "the present rule is a pain in the rear."  The 1992 decision might give some insight as to why it exists.  If you want it changed, you have to counter the argument that created it in the first place.

    As Martin stated, it's doubtful that FIDE will eliminate the rule..  There's a reason that the 75-move rule was implemented.

  • #87
    pfren wrote:
    EndgameStudy έγραψε:

    How many Pawns does it take to draw, and WIN against 2 knights?


    I think 2 knights can beat up to 4 pawns. Not sure if 5 pawns is a draw or a win for the 2 knights, depending on how advanced the pawns are and the position of the knights. In the position shown above, it said White mates in 146 moves. I'm assuming the 1st move is Nxa7 to eliminate that pawn, so after, is it 145? It said it was from the "Lomonosov" Tablebases

    - The one and only move to win is 1.Ke4

    -Who would care about that? Quite obviously, noone.

     

    I think you mean quite obviously not yourself. I've spent a considerable amount of time looking at KNNKPPP and I would say it's very interesting.

  • #88
    MARattigan έγραψε:
    pfren wrote:
    EndgameStudy έγραψε:

    How many Pawns does it take to draw, and WIN against 2 knights?


    I think 2 knights can beat up to 4 pawns. Not sure if 5 pawns is a draw or a win for the 2 knights, depending on how advanced the pawns are and the position of the knights. In the position shown above, it said White mates in 146 moves. I'm assuming the 1st move is Nxa7 to eliminate that pawn, so after, is it 145? It said it was from the "Lomonosov" Tablebases

    - The one and only move to win is 1.Ke4

    -Who would care about that? Quite obviously, noone.

     

    I think you mean quite obviously not yourself. I've spent a considerable amount of time looking at KNNKPPP and I would say it's very interesting.

     

    If you find that one interesting, then your next step to chess evolution would be watching the lawns grow.

  • #89

    χαχαχα!

  • #90

    These are the most interesting endgames in chess for that reason! The fact that you can't calculate all the moves makes it complex and really cool!

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