Can some give me some crash courses on how to mate K+N+B vs K?

Bloop_master7
MARattigan wrote:
woton wrote:
Bloop_master7 wrote:

im not sure i understand you. K+B+N v K is a draw by itself

This is one variation

 

Black would actually play 6...Kc6. For some reason a lot of demonstrations on this site overlook that.

 

But for Bloop_master7's info, there are very few drawn positions in KBNK if you ignore positions that are already stalemate or where the lone king can immediately capture or effectively fork bishop and knight.  

what i mean is this. There is a rule stipulating that if all that is left on the board are Kings, Knights, Bishops, or a combination of these, the game automatically draws, period (mostly due to the fact that checkmates this way are almost impossible to achieve, with the exception being the already mentioned pattern). Am i wrong about that rule, or is there something else going on?

fenrissaga

I tried it myself with some proper vidéo you can succeed ,good luck! wink.png

 

Dsmith42

Bloop_master7, you are wrong.  The rule is that the game is a draw only if there is insufficient material left to force checkmate.  If there are any pawns left, obviously mate is possible, but a lone major piece, or any two minor pieces (though with two knights it can't usually be forced) is enough to mate.

MARattigan
KeSetoKaiba wrote:

As woton describes, this is the "w maneuver" everyone mentions (due to the Knight's movement). ...

 

I think the phrase W-manoeuvre to describe the sequence was actually coined by Wikipedia to describe Phildor's method published in "Analysis of the Game of Chess". The phrase was probably taken from Müller and Lamprecht's Fundamental Chess Endings which presents Philidor's method. They say, 

"Especially important was the knight manoeuvre Nf7-e5-d7-c5-b7. It looks like a ‘W’".

 

But Philidor's line is actually the one following 6.Be4 I mentioned above not the one woton gives. Also if played accurately the last knight move would be to a6 not b7, so it should really have been christened "The Wonky W Manoeuvre".

 

In either case it should not be mistaken for a complete method. It's only a way of transferring the lone king from the wrong corner to the right corner.

 

KeSetoKaiba

Something else is going on. However, there is a similar rule called "insufficient material". 1 Knight alone can't checkmate the King (N+K vs K = draw). Same with 1 Bishop (B+K vs K=draw). Of course, 2 Bishops can perform checkmate, as can one Bishop with one Knight. Insufficient material only applies when it is impossible for a side to win (due to the 50 move rule). I hope this is not confusing, as it can be; does this help, or is it perhaps something else that you are referring to? 

Some are tricky to memorize, but these are not "rules" as much as information on what can win. For example, 1 Knight can't checkmate alone (even with help from its own King), but if the opponent has a pawn left... checkmate is possible! It seems counter-intuitive, but to avoid a stalemate, the side with the Knight needs to unblock this pawn with a zugswang position to win. This is just terminology, and can be confusing, but to summarize: You may be confusing a rule. 

woton
Dsmith42 wrote:

Bloop_master7, you are wrong.  The rule is that the game is a draw only if there is insufficient material left to force checkmate.  If there are any pawns left, obviously mate is possible, but a lone major piece, or any two minor pieces (though with two knights it can't usually be forced) is enough to mate.

The rule for insufficient material does not apply if checkmate is possible but not forced.  A good example is K+2N vs K.  It is possible, but highly unlikely. to checkmate with two knights, so the game is not automatically drawn.  Either the two players agree to a draw or the game continues for 50 moves (or, although unlikely, checkmate).

MARattigan
fenrissaga wrote:

I tried it myself with some proper vidéo you can succeed ,good luck!

 

Black would play 1...Kg8 and you still have to find a way to extract him from the h8 corner.

 

Your best move from the position you give is 1.Bh7 after which mate should follow in another 17 moves along the lines shown by woton (or various other lines).

 

I don't know who Coach Virtuel is, but I would recommend a different opponent.

MARattigan
KeSetoKaiba wrote:

... Insufficient material only applies when it is impossible for a side to win (due to the 50 move rule). ...

The 50 move rule isn't involved in the FIDE dead position rule, nor in the insufficient material rule which it replaced. It's also not involved in the insufficient material rule in the online version of the USCF rules.

woton

 There's a lot of misinformation about rules (and it's not limited to chess).  Most people have never read a rule book.  They learn the rules from others,and much of what they are told is wrong.  Also, there is no one set of rules.  There are differences between USCF and FIDE rules, and even their rules apply only to games that are rated by those organizations.  Other organizations are free to implement their own rules.  So, you have to known whose rules apply to your games.

MARattigan

 One of those other organisations being chess.com but where do you find the rule book?

woton

Good question.  Usually, someone will start a thread stating that Chess.com does not follow FIDE rules, and there are enough Chess.com old-timers around who know the history.  Other than that, just accept what happens and don't worry about it. 

In practice, Chess.com pretty much follows USCF rules.  The only major difference that I know of is a drawn game following running out of time.  Chess.com uses a simple method of determining a  drawn game to avoid complicated programming.  It probably is consistent with USCF or FIDE rules 90+% of the time.

fenrissaga
MARattigan a écrit :
fenrissaga wrote:

I tried it myself with some proper vidéo you can succeed ,good luck!

 

Black would play 1...Kg8 and you still have to find a way to extract him from the h8 corner.

 

Your best move from the position you give is 1.Bh7 after which mate should follow in another 17 moves along the lines shown by woton (or various other lines).

 

I don't know who Coach Virtuel is, but I would recommend a different opponent.

Pertinent question Coach Virtuel is Stockfish full strength here on chess.com here an other example happy.png

 

MARattigan
fenrissaga wrote:
MARattigan a écrit :
fenrissaga wrote:

I tried it myself with some proper vidéo you can succeed ,good luck!

 

Black would play 1...Kg8 and you still have to find a way to extract him from the h8 corner.

 

Your best move from the position you give is 1.Bh7 after which mate should follow in another 17 moves along the lines shown by woton (or various other lines).

 

I don't know who Coach Virtuel is, but I would recommend a different opponent.

Pertinent question Coach Virtuel is Stockfish full strength here on chess.com here an other example

 

Very peculiar. This time Black plays accurately from the outset and White starts suddenly to play accurately from about move 9. Doesn't look like the same two players. In fact White doesn't even look like the same player throughout in the second example.

 

I can't explain why Stockfish played so inaccurately in the first example. It doesn't usually play with perfect accuracy but it's not far off. I think it must have been on the wrong level or starved of computer resources. 

 

In any case if you want to practice with the bishop and knight it's best to practice against an EGTB.

 

Edit: I would guess that the second game was played against Stockfish on your own machine. I haven't tried this endgame against Stockfish at chess.com but I have tried it against Stockfish on it's highest level at another site and that was very much weaker than Stockfish on my PC. The same probably applies at chess.com. It's down to the allocated computer resources.

ichiro_bloodmoon

First things first, when you have a Bishop and Knight you need to focus on what color your Bishop is. By this I mean is your Bishop a light or dark squared Bishop? This matters as the color square your Bishop will be the color corner you have to force the opposing king on. Your Bishop will be used to control the color diagonal that you need to force the opposing king to. Your Knight will help eat up some squares as well. Your king will have to be involved as well as you won't be able to checkmate with just the Bishop and Knight alone. This video breaks it down beautifully. https://youtu.be/r3EqM17jvOc

woton

You might want to look at a tablebase for the position in Post 22.

http://www.k4it.de/index.php?lang=en&topic=egtb

Statute

Take the draw

JohnHS

ichiro_bloodmoon

[Event "Computer"] [Site " Chess.com"] [Date "Feb 16, 2018"] [White "ichiro_bloodmoon"] [Black "Comp"] [Result "1-0"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "8/8/8/3k4/8/6K1/3B4/5N2 w -"] [Termination "ichiro_bloodmoon wins by Checkmate"] 1. Kf3 Kd4 2. Bf4 Kd5 3. Ne3+ Kd4 4. Bd6 Kc3 5. Ke4 Kb3 6. Kd4 Ka4 7. Kc5 Ka5 8. Bb8 Ka6 9. Kc6 Ka5 10. Be5 Ka6 11. Bd4 Ka5 12. Nd5 Ka4 13. Kc5 Ka5 14. Nb4 Ka4 15. Nc6 Kb3 16. Nb4 Ka4 17. Be5 Kb3 18. Kb5 Ka3 19. Kc4 Ka4 20. Bc7 Ka3 21. Nd3 Ka4 22. Nb2+ Ka3 23. Kc3 Ka2 24. Kc2 Ka3 25. Bd6+ Ka2 26. Bb4 Ka1 27. Nd3 Ka2 28. Nc1+ Ka1 29. Bc3# 1-0 Sent from my Android

fenrissaga

 Hi ichiro_bloodmoon  i put your PGN on a board for more understanding happy.png

 

 

pretzel2

i've never had this endgame, usually when i am up a couple of pieces there are easier ways to win.