Calculation Training

Spaceysmile

Well, I remembered the game of Fisher's though I was unsure whether I could be able to calculate it. I should note that it took my half hour to realize it is Fisher's game.

 

About the second one, I think the point is as following: 

1.Qh2+ Ka8 2.Qg2+ Kb8 3.Qg3+ Ka8 4.Qf3+ Kb8 5.Qf4+ Ka8 6.Be4+ Nxe4 7.Qxe4+ Kb8 8.Qe5+ and 

a)8...Ka8 9.Qd5+ Kb8 10.fxe7 b1Q+ 11.Kc5 Qb5+ 12.Kd6 Nb7+ 13.Ke5 and this position is still complex for me , cannot see a decisive win yet, though I also couldnt see any other better variation.

b) 8...Bd6 9.Qxd6+ Ka8 10.Kc7 a1Q 11.Qd5+ Ka7 12.Qc5+ Ka8 13.e7 +- so that is not an option for black.

 

kJDG12

@spaceysmile

In the line A) after 12.Kd6 also Qb6+ is an option for blacks which is more direct than 12.Nb7+ that involves the complex and fascinating 13.Qxb7+! deflection on the d8 square.  After 12. ... Qb6+ 13.Ke5; c1Q blacks look ok because the d8 square is guarded by queen b6 and the whites king is not safe.

Spaceysmile

Mhm IM pfren's .Qb1 idea seems very promising. 

I dont think a1Q is creates any problem: white still have fxe7 with mate to follow.

Against c1Q .fxe7 Qg5, it is still complex. Black threats Qb5# so .Qxb2 makes the most sense.

Now a1Q lose to .Qh2+ Ka8 .Qg2+ and .Qxg5 following.

That leaves Qxe7 , which I couldn't refute that , but this is basicly more promising from the position I thought in my first comment.

kJDG12

@IM pfren

Wow! well done to see the two keys of the position: Qb1! and the double ladder. To understand what to do against c1Q or a1Q you have to check what happen if 1.Qb1! right away without the double ladder and why it would work or not. Then check the difference with your main variation. 

pfren
Spaceysmile έγραψε:

Well, I remembered the game of Fisher's though I was unsure whether I could be able to calculate it. I should note that it took my half hour to realize it is Fisher's game.

 

About the second one, I think the point is as following: 

1.Qh2+ Ka8 2.Qg2+ Kb8 3.Qg3+ Ka8 4.Qf3+ Kb8 5.Qf4+ Ka8 6.Be4+ Nxe4 7.Qxe4+ Kb8 8.Qe5+ and 

a)8...Ka8 9.Qd5+ Kb8 10.fxe7 b1Q+ 11.Kc5 Qb5+ 12.Kd6 Nb7+ 13.Ke5 and this position is still complex for me , cannot see a decisive win yet, though I also couldnt see any other better variation.

b) 8...Bd6 9.Qxd6+ Ka8 10.Kc7 a1Q 11.Qd5+ Ka7 12.Qc5+ Ka8 13.e7 +- so that is not an option for black.

 

 

So, you realized after half an hour that it is a Fischer's game?

It is 101% certain that this is a composed/study position, not something that occured during a game.

KeSetoKaiba

IM @pfren I am pretty sure that @Spaceysmile is referring to puzzle #15 as the "Fischer game" that took half an hour to notice. #16 puzzle is indeed constructed.

p.s. Congratulations on spotting the 16th puzzle through to Qb1!! idea. I "solved" it correctly too, but it was the Qb1 motif I was shocked by. Naturally, there is more to this puzzle than simply Qb1 to stop the pawn, if this route, because White's problems are far from solved.

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Spaceysmile

Yeah, I tried to mean about #15 at Fisher comment. My english can go broken sometimes, not my native. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

 

Let me write main variation until the point we stay.

 

1.Qh2+ Ka8 2.Qg2+ Kb8 3.Qg3+ Ka8 4.Qf3+ Kb8 5.Qf4+ Ka8 6.Be4+ Nxe4 7.Qxe4+ Kb8 8.Qf4+! Ka8 9.Qf3+ Kb8 10.Qg3+ Ka8 11.Qg2+ Kb8 12.Qh2+ Ka8 13.Qh1+ Kb8 14.Qb1!! (All moves until there was found by IM pfren.) c1Q! (again suggested by IM pfren) 15.fxe7 Qg5! 16.Qxb2! and 

A)16...a1Q (Yeah I know I originially said it lose to 17.Qh2 18.Qg2 19.Qxg5 , but upon a relook I realized it is not easy to avoid perpatual check there)

B)16...Qxe7

 

I am looking for possible ideas, but hadn't found any good one. For example against A I thought following one :

17.Qh2+ Ka8 18.Qg2+ Kb8 19.Qg3+ Ka8 20.Qf3+ Kb8 21.Qf4+ Ka8 22.Qe4+ Kb8 23.Qe5+ Ka8 24.Qd5+ Kb8 25.Qd6+ Ka8 26.Kc7 Qaa5+ 27.Kc8 Qgb5 28.exd8N but stayed clueless about what could be done after 28...c3 with idea c2-1Q. For example after 29.e7 c2 30.Ne6 c1Q+ 31.Nc7+ Ka7, I could not see a defense against mate threat on b8.

 

TLDR "IM pfren" made a good job finding Double ladder and Qb1!! idea but the rest still seems unclear to me. 

pfren

Still not found something after 14...c1=Q which is a clean win for white. I guess it's there and I cannot see it... using an engine is totally pointless.

kJDG12

@Spaceysmile:

I have to mention that 16.Qxb2; a1Q 17.Qh2+; Ka8 18.Qg2; Kb8 19.Qxg5?? lose to Qb1+ for example 20.Kxa6; Qb7+ 21.Ka5; Nc6+ 22.Qa4; Qb3mate .

Also that 16.Qxe7 (instead of 16.a1Q) is not dangerous because of Kxa6+; Ka8; Qxa2 and the whites pawns are too dangerous.

Your line and the idea of the third ladder from 16.Qxb2; a1Q until 28.ed8N; c3 is correct and now whites have to find a last idea to win despite the dangerous c3-c2-c1Q blacks' threat.

kJDG12
pfren a écrit :

Still not found something after 14...c1=Q which is a clean win for white. I guess it's there and I cannot see it... using an engine is totally pointless.

Spaceysmile mention the idea of a third ladder from 14. ...c1Q 15.fe7; Qg5 16.Qb2; a1Q 17.Qh2+! (which wasn't possible with the knight on f2 from the start). Then we go again g2-g3-f3-f4-e4 ... and so on. The Qg5 is pinned to the defense of the d8 square.

mzamel

Nice!