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Can't follow the logic in this position

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UpsideDownMate

I am going through this game with Stockfish and I got to move 21 before it went south on me. I can see Nd5 was bad, and I thought maybe I should have played Bxa6 instead after playing it. What would you have done in this position and why? I am not just asking about 1 move into this position, but what should white have been thinking? This is where I get a strong advantage and then I don't know what to do after that and make stupid blunderful moves like Nd5.

 

 

UpsideDownMate

It's not showing the board for some reason. Here is the game.

 

[Event "Live Chess - chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2022.01.14"]
[Round "?"]
[White "UpsideDownMate"]
[Black "Dark_fibre"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "1397"]
[BlackElo "1400"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 c6 3. c4 a5 4. Nc3 b6 5. Nf3 h6 6. Be3 Be7 7. Bd3 g5 8. O-O g4
9. Ne1 h5 10. g3 d6 11. d5 exd5 12. cxd5 c5 13. f3 Kf8 14. Qe2 Bd7 15. Qf2 Qe8
16. Bf4 Na6 17. e5 dxe5 18. Bxe5 f6 19. fxg4 Bxg4 20. d6 Bd8 21. Nd5 (21. Bxa6
Qxe5 (21... Rxa6 22. Nf3) 22. Nf3 Bxf3 23. Qxf3 Rxa6) 21... Qxe5 22. Bxa6 Rxa6
23. Ne3 Ra7 24. Nc4 Qd4 25. b3 Qxf2+ 26. Rxf2 Rhh7 27. Nd3 Rhf7 28. Nf4 Rad7
29. a4 Kg7 30. Re1 Nh6 31. h3 Bf5 32. Nxh5+ Kh7 33. g4 Bxg4 34. hxg4 Nxg4 35.
Rg2 f5 36. Ne3 Ne5 37. Rh2 Nf3+ 0-1

chesslearning

 

Board showing?

chesslearning

What do you think of the stockfish candidate moves... Nf3, Bf4 and Qf4? Did you analyze those?

UpsideDownMate
chesslearning wrote:

What do you think of the stockfish candidate moves... Nf3, Bf4 and Qf4? Did you analyze those?

 

I don't understand why they should be played. What is the end purpose?

chesslearning
UpsideDownMate wrote:
chesslearning wrote:

What do you think of the stockfish candidate moves... Nf3, Bf4 and Qf4? Did you analyze those?

 

I don't understand why they should be played. What is the end purpose?

 

Your bishop is being attacked by the queen. Qf4 just defends the bishop. Bf4 moves the bishop away from attack. Nf3 is the best move. 21. Nf3 fxe5 22. Nxe5+ gives you a powerful attack even though you sacrificed the bishop.

eric0022

I would just play Bf4 immediately.

 

It's not that often that Black's pieces are almost in their starting positions, except that in this case we truncate one bishop between the king and the knight.

tygxc

21 Nd5?? is a blunder that loses a piece.
Just retreat the bishop 21 Bf4 and you are completely winning.

UpsideDownMate

I can see that Bf4 is plausible, but I don't know the continuation. I understand it is winning, but how is it winning? What would you do? Not just, Bf4 and end the discussion.

 

Would you do something like: 21.Bf4 Nb4 22.Bc4 Nh6 ? 

tygxc

#9
Yes: 21 Bf4 Nb4 22 Bc4 Nh6 23 Nf3 is enough to win.

UpsideDownMate
tygxc wrote:

#9
Yes: 21 Bf4 Nb4 22 Bc4 Nh6 23 Nf3 is enough to win.

 

Is there a way to see this? Are there principles I can use to confirm that is the path? I see them as plausible moves, but there are also other lines that also have the same level of advantage. How do you know which one to choose?

eric0022
UpsideDownMate wrote:
tygxc wrote:

#9
Yes: 21 Bf4 Nb4 22 Bc4 Nh6 23 Nf3 is enough to win.

 

Is there a way to see this? Are there principles I can use to confirm that is the path? I see them as plausible moves, but there are also other lines that also have the same level of advantage. How do you know which one to choose?

 

When Black's pieces are standing at the back rank for a group photo...

eric0022

I wouldn't try to be fancy here since Black's position is not very pleasant. I would play regular moves which try to limit Black's options.

 

It's not immediately winning yet, but Black has very few options from there on.

UpsideDownMate
eric0022 wrote:
UpsideDownMate wrote:
tygxc wrote:

#9
Yes: 21 Bf4 Nb4 22 Bc4 Nh6 23 Nf3 is enough to win.

 

Is there a way to see this? Are there principles I can use to confirm that is the path? I see them as plausible moves, but there are also other lines that also have the same level of advantage. How do you know which one to choose?

 

When Black's pieces are standing at the back rank for a group photo...

 

Yes, I can see it is "very" winning. However, I don't see the path to mate. I could say in another position, bring rooks to 7th rank, cut off king's access, etc... etc...

 

In this position, because all the pieces are in the back rank for white, either white:

 

1) has to retreat and regroup to launch an attack

2) trade off pieces

3) defend attacked pieces

 

Each of these three take on different ideas.  So, can someone actually post a sequence of moves and not just state conclusions?

UpsideDownMate

Here's another position to better explain the same frustration, but there is a little more direction. Either I do plan A or plan B. Maybe there is a C also, but I see two obvious choices.

 

 

 

 

Optimissed

Hi, you start to go wrong round about move 10.

10. g3 isn't a particularly bad move but probably 10. f3 is the right move. White just busts it open and black has nothing. Later on, you started playing a lot of random moves, some of which lost pieces for nothing. The logic to understand is "focus". It should be easy for white to win after move five. A forced win because all black has done is weaken his position, while white has developed sensibly and well.

UpsideDownMate
Optimissed wrote:

Hi, you start to go wrong round about move 10.

10. g3 isn't a particularly bad move but probably 10. f3 is the right move. 

 

Thanks for the comment. I thought black could play gxf3, have an open g file and the potential to launch an attack advancing the h pawn. I guess the answer is to just allow it and make them prove a mate is possible?

tygxc

#14
"can someone actually post a sequence of moves"
A won position is a won position, it is neither necessary nor feasible to calculate all possible possibilities to checkmate. Black can try many moves and white usually also has a choice of several winning moves. Just make no mistakes and it wins.

UpsideDownMate

"Just make no mistakes and it wins."

Easier said than done!! grin.png

UpsideDownMate

I get a ton of these winning positions and I can't navigate my way to a win. I don't know what the thinking process should be.