A Queen versus 2 Rooks.

IronIC_U

Just my rotten opinion, but I would exchange both rooks for my opponent’s queen... in most circumstances.  Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

Caesar49bc

It depends on too many factors, but the earlier the trade in the game. The more likeky I would trade my queen for 2 rooks. A big part of that is my playing style, so that trade would have be considered individually by each player and how far into the game you are.

Two rooks vs a queen in the endgame would make for an interesting endgame if the starting endgame position was considered even by a high level chess engine.

IronIC_U

It seems to me, that keeping a queen for two rooks, in the end game (which is when it usually happens) would allow the player with queen to mop up extraneous pieces (such as pawns) of the opponent.  Rooks are not very dynamic.  It usually takes at least two move to get a rook where you want it.

Queens are fueled by a jet engine.  They can get to remote corners of the galaxy so quickly, and can control so many squares...

ghost_of_pushwood

But the rooks can gang up on something--oh, like say, pawns.  The queen can only defend a thing once.

ghost_of_pushwood

An interesting paradox incidentally.  Sometimes the queen is more powerful than the two pieces it embodies because it is so fleet of foot; but if the rook and bishop can gang up on something, their coordination can defeat her majesty.

mariners234
Caesar49bc wrote:

It depends on too many factors, but the earlier the trade in the game. The more likeky I would trade my queen for 2 rooks.

It's probably worth noting that this is opposite of the rule of thumb, and there's some typical example game that gets passed around, I think Fischer beating someone.

On a crowded board it's hard to get a lot of value out of the rooks, which is why more often than not the queen is going to be worth more early in the game.

Llcoold5
It’s easier to avoid stalemate with 2 rooks than 1 queen, but my opponent could easily fork or skewer my rooks and king.
IronIC_U
ghost_of_pushwood wrote:

An interesting paradox incidentally.  Sometimes the queen is more powerful than the two pieces it embodies because it is so fleet of foot; but if the rook and bishop can gang up on something, their coordination can defeat her majesty.

Piece power can sometimes be ironic.  If the opponent’s rooks can get coordinated, they can push the Queen around, as well as can a knight or bishop, even a pawn.  But the queen can deliver a crushing blow by threatening 2 or more pieces, if she can get to a key square.

The classic example is when the queen checks the opponent king, while threatening another piece...

LIONSHAPEDBOX

Hmm... interesting. As i understand... other factors equal 2 rooks should be slightly better, one point better. But that is assuming they are connected and the board is quite sparse and open. A master would take the rooks. But most club player, Lion included, would take the queen... because is not easy to give most powerful piece? 

IronIC_U

So Lion,

Probably correct.  You know, Fischer sac’d his queen very early in a game once.  He must have gotten at least one rook for it (can’t remember).

But 949 likes his odds with the queen versus the rooks.  Rooks can be cumbersome, unless, like you say... it’s master level play.

Caesar49bc
mariners234 wrote:
Caesar49bc wrote:

It depends on too many factors, but the earlier the trade in the game. The more likeky I would trade my queen for 2 rooks.

It's probably worth noting that this is opposite of the rule of thumb, and there's some typical example game that gets passed around, I think Fischer beating someone.

On a crowded board it's hard to get a lot of value out of the rooks, which is why more often than not the queen is going to be worth more early in the game.

It all really comes down to the board position. I certainly wouldn't start a game with two rooks and no queen, against a queen and no rooks. Perhaps a match of 100 games between two high end engines at, say, 90+30 might be interesting. I'm not into engine vs engines games. Maybe I'll put that suggestion on forum dedicated to chess engines and people that program chess engines.

mariners234

Yeah, it depends on the position.

It's just I think any (non troll) Q vs 2R topic should probably mention the rule of thumb that Q for early game and 2R for endgame.

Caesar49bc
mariners234 wrote:

Yeah, it depends on the position.

It's just I think any (non troll) Q vs 2R topic should probably mention the rule of thumb that Q for early game and 2R for endgame.

One of these days I'll get around to a more systematic program of endgame training. I've covered a lot of territory on endgame, but it's been mostly along the lines of using the middlegame to position for the endgame. So a lot of my endgame wins are due to a better understanding of late middlegame strategy...

...which leaves me an ocean of endgame stuff I need to learn. Someday I'd like to be able to actually look at expert level endgame studies and actually have a clue how to solve them.

Ziryab

In the last tournament I played in, the top player on the top board beat a young player who has been rising fast with two rooks versus queen and both players having three pawns on the kingside. The player with the queen had some queenside pawns, too, but these fell easily. Eventually the two rooks were exchanged by force for queen and pawn and it was a 3-2 pawn ending.

 

I might note that after watching Kramnik--Andreikin, 2013, where Kramnik employed two rooks against a queen, I did a database search of the imbalance, went through a lot of games, and developed a general impression that the queen prevailed very slightly more often. Other factors--pawn structure, for instance--seems to be the critical variable.

mariners234

Ok here's the game

 

ghost_of_pushwood

Ah, just as I was about to post it... happy.png

Llcoold5

ok, so 2 rooks  Is more points than a queen, and easier to checkmate with, but with a queen against me, I would trade my rooks for my opponent’s queen.

ghost_of_pushwood

So you've learned nothing from all of this.

Ziryab

 

ghost_of_pushwood

Unless of course you also get a pawn for it.