Blitz....pawn vs bishop

captaintugwash

This is actually really interesting, but you're all giving OP a hard time because he wanted to win.

 

This position is very easy for both sides to draw, given sufficient time (a simple +1 second incriment is enough time here). However, assuming white only has ten seconds with no incriment, he is in deep time trouble. To FORCE the draw, he needs to promote his pawn, even if it means being captured. As things stand, it is not a draw. Even if it wasn't for the suicide mate with the undepromotion, it wouldn't be a draw because WHITE has sufficient mating material. As far as I'm aware, white cannot claim a draw based on insufficient mating material if he himself has sufficient mating material.

 

Black is entirely within his rights to play for the win here, it is BLITZ and it should be expected. Black has an easy win, even though it's an easily drawn position in theory. Why should black not go for the win? If you don't like it, don't play blitz, or manage your time better.

h4_explosive

You can talk about rules whatever you want, fair enough. But I remain with my claim that a player with dignity would not try to flag his opponent here when he offers a draw, for me that just seems incredibly cheeky.

universityofpawns
captaintugwash wrote:

This is actually really interesting, but you're all giving OP a hard time because he wanted to win.

 

This position is very easy for both sides to draw, given sufficient time (a simple +1 second incriment is enough time here). However, assuming white only has ten seconds with no incriment, he is in deep time trouble. To FORCE the draw, he needs to promote his pawn, even if it means being captured. As things stand, it is not a draw. Even if it wasn't for the suicide mate with the undepromotion, it wouldn't be a draw because WHITE has sufficient mating material. As far as I'm aware, white cannot claim a draw based on insufficient mating material if he himself has sufficient mating material.

 

Black is entirely within his rights to play for the win here, it is BLITZ and it should be expected. Black has an easy win, even though it's an easily drawn position in theory. Why should black not go for the win? If you don't like it, don't play blitz, or manage your time better.

Actually wrong....you can not checkmate with King and Bishop, so White is actually the only side that could even win this.....if White times out it comes up as a "draw by insufficient material".

AlkinKing
pfren you’re the best, thanks for the diagram.

I’d be pissed if I was white here.. I’m curious what did the td decide and is op playing FIDE or USCF

Also if it’s a USCF tournament that is also FIDE rated I guess FIDE overrules the USCF rules? I guess I’m confused why there’s a rule difference when USCF is a member of FIDE.
captaintugwash
universityofpawns wrote:
captaintugwash wrote:

This is actually really interesting, but you're all giving OP a hard time because he wanted to win.

 

This position is very easy for both sides to draw, given sufficient time (a simple +1 second incriment is enough time here). However, assuming white only has ten seconds with no incriment, he is in deep time trouble. To FORCE the draw, he needs to promote his pawn, even if it means being captured. As things stand, it is not a draw. Even if it wasn't for the suicide mate with the undepromotion, it wouldn't be a draw because WHITE has sufficient mating material. As far as I'm aware, white cannot claim a draw based on insufficient mating material if he himself has sufficient mating material.

 

Black is entirely within his rights to play for the win here, it is BLITZ and it should be expected. Black has an easy win, even though it's an easily drawn position in theory. Why should black not go for the win? If you don't like it, don't play blitz, or manage your time better.

Actually wrong....you can not checkmate with King and Bishop, so White is actually the only side that could even win this.....if White times out it comes up as a "draw by insufficient material".

No prize for spotting who didn't read the thread.

The bishop can win.  See post #21

captaintugwash
h4_explosive wrote:

You can talk about rules whatever you want, fair enough. But I remain with my claim that a player with dignity would not try to flag his opponent here when he offers a draw, for me that just seems incredibly cheeky.

Dignity? Winning by time is how most blitz games end, many times with the winner being well behind in material.

This game is the extreme example where the "sufficient material" is a suicide mate, coupled with the fact that black has a very easy win on time by simply refusing to move his bishop. This isn't a draw. It would be if white had more than ten seconds.

 

This is blitz, it's the very nature of blitz in its most unlikely scenario.

captaintugwash

If we're going to say this is a draw because it's technically drawn and even a cat could draw this with sufficient time, then why bother playing out K+R vs K? It's an easy win, just award the win to the rook.

 

No, we have to assume that terrible mistakes can be made, and it's only drawn by insufficient material if checkmate is impossible, not simply easy to avoid.

 

Those who think this should be a draw also think K+R vs K is a win for the rook without continuing. If not, then you're confused.

captaintugwash

 http://www.e4ec.org/immr.html

 

Here's an article on the "insufficient material" rule. FYI, K+N+N vs K is not a draw... we all know it's an easy draw, but it's not an auto-draw since checkmate is possible. Again, playing out a two knight endgame to win on time would be "cheeky", but in blitz where the king is in serious time trouble, well I would expect it.

 

Here's an interesting position. Amelung vs Helmersen, Tallin. This is a draw, the game should not continue from Ngxf6+ because it is impossible for either side to deliver checkmate. I don't know if the game did actually continue to stalemate, if a draw was agreed, or forced in this position, but the rules state that it should draw immediately after Ngxf6+.

(white to move)

 

edit - actually it's drawn after Qxf6+, because if black blunders exf6, then Ne7#