Can anyone trully explain this endgame possition

pfren

Not lengthy calculations needed. See it like that:

1. White's rook prevents the queening of Black's pawn (f1 square), so there is no need to waste moves with the rook.

2. Black needs 5 moves to bring the pawn to f2, and the king to e2, when he does threaten to promote.

3. On the same time, white needs 6 moves to get the king at g2 and prevent promotion. Since it is white to move, the solution is pretty straightforward: 1.Ke7 followed by Kf6-g5-g4 etc. Black's king has no effective way to stop the white king from getting there.

dk-Ltd
WSama wrote:
dk-Ltd wrote:
WSama wrote:

Another concept that plays a big role in this position is how the king and pawn combination works. Usually, for a king to defend its pawn against threats, it will have to move around the pawn, manoeuvre the squares surrounding the pawn - sometimes even blocking the pawn itself. Not only is the enemy king attempting to protect the pawn but it must also protect itself. As the opposition you can use this to your advantage by limiting the squares surrounding the enemy pawn, thus limiting the defensive options the opponent has. That's why you push the king into the battle - you're attacking the pawn, taking away squares from the enemy king (the defender), and supporting the rook in the battle to win that (beepin) pawn.

The winning formula = limit the squares the enemy king can use to protect its pawn + increase the pressure

This especially works because the king is good at attacking pawns. It can get around pawns easily (like the queen), and they both only move one square at a time. And because of that they exhibit a particular movement pattern when working together, and if there's one thing we know about patterns is that there is an anti-pattern or counter-pattern for every working pattern. If you continue to study endgames then the patterns of the king and pawn combinaton will become apparent.

Of course there other concepts that could come into play in such positions, concepts such zukzwang might be a probable example... or something along those lines.

thanks, for the good try, but it is far more complex than what you describe. Try to win it yourself and you will understand that all that you described would be of no much help. The best way to see that, is to actually win it, but without the computer gifting it to you. Then, see how weird some of the moves required are and try to explain them. By the way, sometimes the computer it indeed gifts the win to us, since it doesn't understand how hard and unnatural are some moves for us (only sees the evaluations).

 

After @2Late4Work pointed out Ke7, I got every move right. Why? It's really simple as I noted earlier. 

  • Two threats and only one defender
  • King and pawn combination has a particular pattern to exploit
  • Push the king and make it a contender, ready the rook and make it a contender

King and pawn only move one square at a time. If the king moves then the pawn is left behind, and if the pawn moves then the king is left behind. This is the part of the pattern that matters in this example. White's king is close enough to take the 'opposition' and exploit the pattern. White has a king and a rook. White is attacking from both angles. Black can only either move the king or pawn. What ever black moves something else is left behind. This is the pattern that white must exploit to win.

Yes Wsama, I noticed that it is quite simple as you described when you start with Ke7 after I replied to you and after I had read the first reply reply from 2015sakk. But the complexity that was referring to occurs when you start with Re1, which is also valid but significantly harder. Read the last post from 2015sakk where he explains one of the positions that I was actually referring to, it was very instructive, at least for me.

What you described is perfectly fine and true, when you start with Ke7, but if you start with Re1 then more is required. In the particular position there is no need to make your life harder and start with anything other than Ke7, like you suggested. I am sure though, there are positions where the knowledge gained by understanding how to win with Re1 can be beneficial to me.

PawnstormPossie
pfren wrote:

Not lengthy calculations needed. See it like that:

1. White's rook prevents the queening of Black's pawn (f1 square), so there is no need to waste moves with the rook.

2. Black needs 5 moves to bring the pawn to f2, and the king to e2, when he does threaten to promote.

3. On the same time, white needs 6 moves to get the king at g2 and prevent promotion. Since it is white to move, the solution is pretty straightforward: 1.Ke7 followed by Kf6-g5-g4 etc. Black's king has no effective way to stop the white king from getting there.

I enjoy your answers/comments more than most others.

In this type of endgame, what is Black's only threat? Promoting

Q: Can Black promote?

A: Calculate

 

dk-Ltd
pfren wrote:

Not lengthy calculations needed. See it like that:

1. White's rook prevents the queening of Black's pawn (f1 square), so there is no need to waste moves with the rook.

2. Black needs 5 moves to bring the pawn to f2, and the king to e2, when he does threaten to promote.

3. On the same time, white needs 6 moves to get the king at g2 and prevent promotion. Since it is white to move, the solution is pretty straightforward: 1.Ke7 followed by Kf6-g5-g4 etc. Black's king has no effective way to stop the white king from getting there.

True, but I was starting with Re1, which is still valid but for masochists. It worked to my favor though, since it helped me understand some things better.

2015sakk

dk-Ltd wrote:  "I am sure though, there are positions where the knowledge gained by understanding how to win with Re1 can be beneficial to me."

Like this position for example:

And here is why 1:Rd1 is draw!

 

liamchez

Wow so interesting how Rd1 is a blunder! Nice endgame puzzle grin.png 

hikarunaku

Solve this. 

tongtong2014

Wow look at this. https://www.chess.com/play/computer?fen=3K4%2F8%2F8%2F5p2%2F4k3%2F8%2F8%2FR7%20w%20-%20-%200%201 if you play Re1+ is moves the king then play Rf1 the it pushes the pawn LOL.

2015sakk
tongtong2014 wrote:

Wow look at this. https://www.chess.com/play/computer?fen=3K4%2F8%2F8%2F5p2%2F4k3%2F8%2F8%2FR7%20w%20-%20-%200%201 if you play Re1+ is moves the king then play Rf1 the it pushes the pawn LOL.

It's a computer, he doesnt give a ****, how it's loses. It's expect you to make the best moves, it's not calculating you might blunder! grin.png Human opponent wont make a move like this. grin.png

pfren
2015sakk έγραψε:

dk-Ltd wrote:  "I am sure though, there are positions where the knowledge gained by understanding how to win with Re1 can be beneficial to me."

Like this position for example:

And here is why 1:Rd1 is draw!

 

 

...or you could move all the pieces one file to the right, and get the exact position of the classic Reti study... tongue.png (as posted in #27- dunno why, the solution is of course exactly the same).

 

hikarunaku
pfren wrote:
2015sakk έγραψε:

dk-Ltd wrote:  "I am sure though, there are positions where the knowledge gained by understanding how to win with Re1 can be beneficial to me."

Like this position for example:

And here is why 1:Rd1 is draw!

 

 

...or you could move all the pieces one file to the right, and get the exact position of the classic Reti study...  (as posted in #27- dunno why, the solution is of course exactly the same).

 

I posted that above because I did not read his post. 

llamonade
pfren wrote:

Not lengthy calculations needed. See it like that:

1. White's rook prevents the queening of Black's pawn (f1 square), so there is no need to waste moves with the rook.

2. Black needs 5 moves to bring the pawn to f2, and the king to e2, when he does threaten to promote.

3. On the same time, white needs 6 moves to get the king at g2 and prevent promotion. Since it is white to move, the solution is pretty straightforward: 1.Ke7 followed by Kf6-g5-g4 etc. Black's king has no effective way to stop the white king from getting there.

pfren wrote:

Not lengthy calculations needed. See it like that:

1. White's rook prevents the queening of Black's pawn (f1 square), so there is no need to waste moves with the rook.

2. Black needs 5 moves to bring the pawn to f2, and the king to e2, when he does threaten to promote.

3. On the same time, white needs 6 moves to get the king at g2 and prevent promotion. Since it is white to move, the solution is pretty straightforward: 1.Ke7 followed by Kf6-g5-g4 etc. Black's king has no effective way to stop the white king from getting there.

And that's the essence of it really. Count how many moves the weaker side needs to put the king and pawn on the 2nd to last rank. Then compare to how many moves the stronger side needs to have the king and rook defend the promotion square.

Then when you're actually playing, and you can barely stop the pawn, be sure whenever the opponent makes 1 move worth of progress towards those squares, that you will be able to respond in the same way (1 move worth of progress). In other words if their king advances 1 rank, your king should also advance 1 rank. If their king doesn't, then your king doesn't need to either.