Chess clock and spectators

My opponent posted something about pressing down the button of a chess clock and a spectator on a chess game being lashed out from a different chess topic?

On the chess clock matter, was it because the accuser has made some error move or knocked off his or my pieces and press my clock while he was trying to put the correct position back on the chess board on my time and not his? And about people watching the game on chess in any format either in tournaments or fun play, are spectators allowed to make any noise or comments while chess players are playing?

Please let me know, to any knowledgable chess players on these rules.

As a part-time TD, I would say absolutely not. No noise/distractions in a tourney hall, period.

Though here's one of the often  exasperating moments that a TD might see often.

- Last table playing, crowd huddled around "silently" and the clock situation warrants a blitz-fest, even with a 5-second delay.

What happens:

1) Player A's clock falls

2) Player B does not notice

3) Player A may or may not notice but plays on

4) Idiot among the spectators points to the clock/gasps or even says something.

5) Play "would" have continued ... but it stopped as the player/s are made aware of the flag.

As a TD, you have to try to make sure (4) +(5) does not happen as the rules clearly only allow the players playing the game to call flag, nobody else.  

FIDE law 6.8: "A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect" 

@shivsky , yes correct, the only thing I am adding here, is that my opponent has a few seconds on his clock and my flag is down, when a spectator, makes a note about the flag has fallen, I say this game does not count, and my opponent will disagree, and make comments like I lost the game and I made harsh remarks to the spectator because they said something about the flag.  Sounds like he needs any kind of help just to get a win? And this has happened twice, just because my flag has fallen and his has not and tried to claim both wins in different occasion.  I mentioned to the club, even if you are new to the game or has played for along time, no one can make a comment or any sound to attract or distract any players while the clock is going (up or down), and this opponent has played for a long time to know the spectators rule in chess FIDE or USCF or even just a fun game.  He say that, so that he think he is right about the chess rule. Honestly, I just told those spectators, they are not allowed to mention anything while a chess game is going on (period). And if you are in any chess tournament and make a small or some noise to atract anything, the TD or organizer can put a spectator out of the tournament site or even ban you from any chess tournament in the future. Correct me, if I am wrong to say it?

Can a TD take action against a spectator who points out a flag has fallen? Yes.

Will they? No. At the very worst they'll get a warning. TD's understand that the spectators are emotionally engaged and such outbursts are simply going to happen.

The penalty for such outbursts is upon the spectator, not to the players. The game would count.

@arctor, yes correct FIDE rule, have you played a game with someone, and a there is no arbiter before or after a disputed game? And your opponent will pick one out, out of the blue, and it's just between you and your opponent?  And yur opponent makes it that he wins about the disputed game?  I never did, so what I do, is just consider the game failed and start a new one, but the comments from your opponent who ever it is will be harsh. Like you don't even want to lose or something? 

Think about it?

@Kingpatzer , just to be fair for both players just make the game forfeited either you or your opponents flag has fallen, when a spectator has made any comments on flag falling, or about the game, this is just a fun game and not a tournament, in tournaments, TD's can restart the game just to be fair to both players, and not give one a win, which is unfair to the other player.  But, my opponent will probably choose the win, but if theTD gave the win other player, LOL, think of it what the comments will be?

Thanks

@borgqueen, corrrect he pressed my clock after knocking several pieces and not properly putting the correct pieces on the board and press my clock again that's why I held my button , so he won't press it again thr third time till he fixes his error? Good point.

I don't understand this rule about the clock. cause it is kind of unsportsmanlike to play on even though you know the flag is fallen and even win. 
like scoring a goal in soccer and the referee doesn't know you used your hand.
I wonder what would happen if two players protested and played on for more than an hour after the official time. TD and spectators are not allowed to say the time is over so why end the game.

That's the point of the rule I quoted above, the TD/arbiter can and should end the game if he observes that a flag has fallen and neither player does.

@bobbyDK , if any spectator, that is neither one of the chess player has  knowledge of thier time, mentioned anything about the players time on the clock, either they say flag or even a gesture, noise,  where one of the  player can get a signal that a flag has fallen is a NO,NO.  So, the game must be restarted, if it is only a skittles or blitz fun game, but in real tournaments there are penalties for the culprit.

You're right about the FIDE rules. However, when playing games under United States Chess Federation rules, the tournament director is not allowed to point out flag falls.

I obey the rules I just don't understand the logic behind it.

Why should you be able to play if your flag is fallen?

you have 2 hours for the game not 2 hours and 2 minutes.
I think the reason spectactors may not say something is that they may read the clock wrong and think the flag is fallen but it isn't thus breaking concentration. However if it is a digital clock no error can be made.

Maybe it's a different viewpoint on personal responsibility. The Players are expected to be aware of their clock at all times.

I am sure this has occured and the "twit" should be ejected from the playing site . I dont know what the result of the game would be in this case and uscf rules may differ from fide rules in such a situation. 

I'd like to weigh in on this discussion. The rules are the rules and whatever they are we abide by them. That said, I think the fact that a player must call the clock himself dates from a time when it was more likely that a flag fall could go unnoticed by either or both players. And it's not really appropriate in a competitive setting to expect or require a player to announce his own defeat. So if both flags are now down, who's to say which fell first, if the first fall did go unnoticed? That's why a player had to/has to call the clock himself for his win, unless the flag fall is seen by a TD, in which case the TD should call it. Because the game is over and the player with time on his/her clock has won. Personal responsibility should not come into it. This game is Chess, not Personal Responsibility. It shouldn't be the case that a player can beat somebody else by playing good chess, but then lose on Personal Responsibility. Why should this arbitrary factor having really nothing to do with the play have a role in determining the winner? True, it is better for that player if he has good clock awareness, but that's for his own benefit. Different players use different skills and talents when they play. Some may use superior clock awareness (time management), others, not so much, but may rely on, let's say, good moves.  Whichever strategy prevails, prevails. So when time runs out, the game's over, and the TD if present should be required to announce it. Better yet, all competitive games should be played with the clock audible and visual alarm enabled. As for spectators, it is a correct and general principle that they should always remain silent. Other factors aside, a random spectator could be wrong and affect the outcome. But if a spectator should squeal when the flag is truely down, then no harm, no foul, game over. And throw the spectator out.

A bit of clarification of the USCF rules might be helpful.

If only one flag has fallen, the TD is not allowed to intervene, but if both flags have fallen in a sudden death game and neither player has noticed, then the TD can declare the game a draw. This exception is allowed so that the tournament isn't delayed.

I couldn't find any rule pertaining to the visual or audible setting of a clock's flag fall, but from my tournament experience, standard practice is to set the visual alarm (e.g., a flashing red LED light), but not the audible alarm. Can you imagine how disruptive it would be to have everyone's clocks beeping in a large tournament room? Everyone close to the beeping clock would be looking at his own clock to see if he'd flagged. I'm not sure how TDs would react if everyone started to set the audible alarms on their clocks. (although I can venture a guess)

The discussion about unsolicited advice, which includes the situation of a spectator pointing out a flag fall, runs over two pages in the rule book. Needless to say, this rule can get very complicated.

I see what you mean about the audible alarm. We accept the rules but I still think continuing to play when you know your time has expired should be considered cheating.  

It is interesting. In golf, you're expected to call infractions on yourself, while in most other sports, most people will get away with what others don't notice. I hate to say it, but if I were to flag in a chess game and my opponent didn't notice, I'd probably call the flag on myself. I guess I'm just a sucker.

@EscherehcsE: Hasn't it happened that the flag has fallen on you yet?

Myself, as stated, I play by the rules, so sometimes I continue to play, even though it doesn't feel right. Also it's frustrating because most of the time your opponent knows your flag is down and as soon as he gets into trouble on the board, he calls it.