Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Avatar of OctopusOnSteroids
Hightider wrote:
Optimissed hat geschrieben:
Hightider wrote:
Optimissed hat geschrieben:

What is solved?

Many things. How to make alcohol. Every possible move and combination in Checkers. Global communication networks have a solution, too... 
Lots of things. 
So you have to be a little more specific.

OK. With regard to chess, what does solved mean?

Lad aside and BTT:

"Solved" means every possible position has a known perfect response without ever losing due to optimal play.

But we don't know the perfect moves yet. Chess isn't solved because of that. Current engines don't know perfect moves. They calculate millions of positions and pick the "best" based on evaluation, but they can't see every possibility to the end of the game. There are simply too many variations (more than atoms in the universe). That's why top engines still lose to each other.

Chess will be "solved" when we can prove the result of perfect play from the starting position (win for white, win for black, or draw) and demonstrate the exact moves to achieve it. Until then, even the strongest engines are just incredibly good approximations, better than any human ever could be, but still not perfect.
Once perfect = chess solved. 
Until that day, it's unsolved. 
Checkers, Tic-Tac-Toe, etc, are much simpler games with way fewer possibilities. So for computers it was a lot easier to solve those games. Those games are deemed "solved".

We cant exactly rule out having a perfect solution for every position and still losing by force due to opposing optimal play lol

Avatar of Optimissed
Hightider wrote:
Optimissed hat geschrieben:
Hightider wrote:
Optimissed hat geschrieben:

What is solved?

Many things. How to make alcohol. Every possible move and combination in Checkers. Global communication networks have a solution, too... 
Lots of things. 
So you have to be a little more specific.

OK. With regard to chess, what does solved mean?

Lad aside and BTT:

"Solved" means every possible position has a known perfect response without ever losing due to optimal play.

But we don't know the perfect moves yet. Chess isn't solved because of that. Current engines don't know perfect moves. They calculate millions of positions and pick the "best" based on evaluation, but they can't see every possibility to the end of the game. There are simply too many variations (more than atoms in the universe). That's why top engines still lose to each other.

Chess will be "solved" when we can prove the result of perfect play from the starting position (win for white, win for black, or draw) and demonstrate the exact moves to achieve it. Until then, even the strongest engines are just incredibly good approximations, better than any human ever could be, but still not perfect.
Once perfect = chess solved. 
Until that day, it's unsolved. 
Checkers, Tic-Tac-Toe, etc, are much simpler games with way fewer possibilities. So for computers it was a lot easier to solve those games. Those games are deemed "solved".

Yes, so it's meaningless. There's no possible use for chess being "solved". Incidentally, obviously "what is solved?" is in relation to the comment preceding that question.

Avatar of Optimissed
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

He's somewhat chameleon-like and is rapidly diffusing into a normal person. Give the lad time!

A telling admission.

Why an admission? Why is it telling? The answers to this and other questions will be revealed when we perfect drivelvision. Invest in drivelvision now! You know it makes no sense.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

He's somewhat chameleon-like and is rapidly diffusing into a normal person. Give the lad time!

A telling admission.

Why an admission? Why is it telling? The answers to this and other questions will be revealed when we perfect drivelvision. Invest in drivelvision now! You know it makes no sense.

...and a telling deflection attempt.

Avatar of Optimissed
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

He's somewhat chameleon-like and is rapidly diffusing into a normal person. Give the lad time!

A telling admission.

Why an admission? Why is it telling? The answers to this and other questions will be revealed when we perfect drivelvision. Invest in drivelvision now! You know it makes no sense.

...and a telling deflection attempt.

Where there's nothing but thin air to deflect, then no attempt need be made. Therefore it was not a deflection attempt. So why was it telling?

Avatar of mpaetz
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

We cant exactly rule out having a perfect solution for every position and still losing by force due to opposing optimal play lol

Then the perfect solution to that position would be a loss. A perfect solution--all the way to checkmate or any form of draw--just means we know the end result every possible continuation, and the opponent has a clear route to unavoidable victory. Any chance to change the result would lie in the moves leading to the position in question.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

He's somewhat chameleon-like and is rapidly diffusing into a normal person. Give the lad time!

A telling admission.

Why an admission? Why is it telling? The answers to this and other questions will be revealed when we perfect drivelvision. Invest in drivelvision now! You know it makes no sense.

...and a telling deflection attempt.

Where there's nothing but thin air to deflect, then no attempt need be made. Therefore it was not a deflection attempt. So why was it telling?

1. You are not friends with anyone that does hold you in higher esteem than you do them. You can't handle anyone that thinks they are a peer.

2. Player is prone to supplication when trying to achieve his dreams of being on a real team and being approved/respected by all and sundry.

Perfect fit, for now...but ultimately, doomed.

Avatar of OctopusOnSteroids
mpaetz wrote:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

We cant exactly rule out having a perfect solution for every position and still losing by force due to opposing optimal play lol

Then the perfect solution to that position would be a loss. A perfect solution--all the way to checkmate or any form of draw--just means we know the end result every possible continuation, and the opponent has a clear route to unavoidable victory. Any chance to change the result would lie in the moves leading to the position in question.

So youre agreeing with me?

Avatar of mpaetz

Essentially. Or we could just say that said position DOES have a perfect solution leading to a forced win. For the opponent.

Avatar of OctopusOnSteroids

Sure, I was just sort trying to be snarky stating the obvious with my initial point, but yes

Avatar of Taoofchesss

chess been solved it called a draw!

Avatar of Hightider
mpaetz hat geschrieben:
OctopusOnSteroids wrote:

We cant exactly rule out having a perfect solution for every position and still losing by force due to opposing optimal play lol

Then the perfect solution to that position would be a loss. A perfect solution--all the way to checkmate or any form of draw--just means we know the end result every possible continuation, and the opponent has a clear route to unavoidable victory. Any chance to change the result would lie in the moves leading to the position in question.

Exactly. It's not exactly about winning per se, it's jsut knowing all end results. Tic-Tac-Toe is a great example, because it is solved, but the perfect game always ends in a draw and can't be won unless someone makes a mistake.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Taoofchesss wrote:

chess been solved it called a draw!

Nope. Chess has not been solved, and will not be in our lifetimes.

Avatar of Optimissed

I think it's solved but it's possible that there can never be proof one way or the other. But if the very silly "best moves from every position" form of solution is desired, that won't occur in our lifetimes. We agree on something.

Avatar of Optimissed
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

He's somewhat chameleon-like and is rapidly diffusing into a normal person. Give the lad time!

A telling admission.

Why an admission? Why is it telling? The answers to this and other questions will be revealed when we perfect drivelvision. Invest in drivelvision now! You know it makes no sense.

...and a telling deflection attempt.

Where there's nothing but thin air to deflect, then no attempt need be made. Therefore it was not a deflection attempt. So why was it telling?

1. You are not friends with anyone that does hold you in higher esteem than you do them. You can't handle anyone that thinks they are a peer.

2. Player is prone to supplication when trying to achieve his dreams of being on a real team and being approved/respected by all and sundry.

Perfect fit, for now...but ultimately, doomed.

I'm certainly certain I'm not friends with you.
BUT ... are you CERTAIN that you're alright? Are you sure?
I think that was from your point of view and actually a rare insight into your condition projected onto me for self-protection. But let's not go too far down there. Just maybe calm down and accept that you don't impress some people. I'm sure I don't but it isn't about me.

Avatar of Optimissed

Thinking about what you said, it seems clear that you don't realise that the essential part of friendship is mutual respect. Not necessarily full acceptance, Dio, but respect. Of course, "friends" on this site are different. Some really are friends ... either friendships made here or real life friends members here too. But many are people we never get to know. Maybe one of us did something at some point that made the other like them or something. I get friend requests and I always accept unless there's something I don't like ... no matter that we haven't interacted. I send them out occasionally .... not very much. It's a token kind of thing.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
DiogenesDue wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

He's somewhat chameleon-like and is rapidly diffusing into a normal person. Give the lad time!

A telling admission.

Why an admission? Why is it telling? The answers to this and other questions will be revealed when we perfect drivelvision. Invest in drivelvision now! You know it makes no sense.

...and a telling deflection attempt.

Where there's nothing but thin air to deflect, then no attempt need be made. Therefore it was not a deflection attempt. So why was it telling?

1. You are not friends with anyone that does hold you in higher esteem than you do them. You can't handle anyone that thinks they are a peer.

2. Player is prone to supplication when trying to achieve his dreams of being on a real team and being approved/respected by all and sundry.

Perfect fit, for now...but ultimately, doomed.

I'm certainly certain I'm not friends with you.
BUT ... are you CERTAIN that you're alright? Are you sure?
I think that was from your point of view and actually a rare insight into your condition projected onto me for self-protection. But let's not go too far down there. Just maybe calm down and accept that you don't impress some people. I'm sure I don't but it isn't about me.

Of course you're not friends with me. I'm not beneath you.

I don't care about impressing people or getting their approval. That's for the insecure to wade through. I can think of two sterling examples.

Meanwhile, get your own points/arguments and/or stop incorporating things posters have said about you for years into your playbook.

Avatar of Optimissed

You have a very strange way of thinking about things that come naturally to most people. You're massively insecure. That's why all your posts are about comparing yourself with others and about your endless feuds with everyone. The rest of us don't have feuds with others all the time.

Everything you write about people comes from within you because it's about yourself. You seem to have no idea that it's so transparent and easy to see. Please get yoursef sorted out.

Don't you know what I'm talking about and do you really think you can hide it?

Avatar of Optimissed

Anyway, enjoy yourself.

Avatar of tommyaweosme

this is my first chess forum post. i think that given the new quantum technologies, chess will be able to be solved. there are 19 pieces (including empty), and 64 squares, that will make 19^64 (or +81) possibilities. assuming we need a gigabyte (8 million bits) for one chess position, we would need 273 qugigabytes, or 2 billion qubits. this is because 2^273 is bigger than 19^64. if you think that 273 qugigabytes is a lot, your hard drive probably has more space than 273 normal gigabytes.
this estimate also does not take into account like some positions (multiple kings, pawn on the back rank, 10 queens, zero kings, etc.) are impossible. so assuming we have all of this quantum space, we should be able to solve and store chess with computers.