Draws

ChessisGood

What is your opinion on chess games that result in a draw?

ChessisGood

To let everyone know, I am researching the strong opposition to draws a great percentage of the chess community has displayed. I would like some input about why you like/dislike draws.

Some questions to consider include:

  • If a player rated 200 points higher offered you a draw on the first move, would you accept it? If not, why?
  • You have even material against a player rated 200 points lower than you. Looking at the board, you see that he has a mate in 5. You are not sure if he sees it, but he offers you a draw. Do you accept it?
ivandh

I like draws. Especially because I think endgames are on the boring side, if we have ground out a good middlegame without either side getting an advantage, a draw is a nice fair shake for both of us.

I don't care about ratings, but my decision to draw may be influenced by the play I've seen in the game. Sometimes I will play on if my opponent has made a lot of sloppy mistakes.

dbruser

1. No. I play because I enjoy chess, and I enjoy a little bit of challenge. Maybe if it was a tournament or something and I was tired and not in the mood for chess, but even still, I probably wouldn't accept.

2. Yes. I still would prefer a draw over a loss, and when my opponent has mate in 5. If my opponent has an easy win, I would definately take a draw over a loss.

ChessisGood

Some more questions:

  • You are beating your opponent in a R+B vs. R endgame. You have about five seconds left, plus the five second delay. Your opponent has 20 minutes. He offers you a draw. Do you accept it?
  • You are a whole point ahead of everyone in the last round of the tournament, except for your opponent, who has 1/2 point less. A draw will get you first place. Your opponent knows this, but a draw will get him clear 2nd as well. There is a lot of money involved, and your opponent asks you if you want a draw before the round actually starts. What do you say?
  • You are allowed one game with analysis against the GM of your choice. On the twelfth move, you see a way to get a quick repetition. Do you take it?
  • You are playing a blitz game against an equal opponent. You each have only a queen, but he has 10 seconds and no delay. You have plenty of time, but he offers a draw. Do you accept?
ChessisGood
  • Is it moral to accept a draw in the first 20 moves, before anything has been decided?
  • You reach a drawn endgame (e.g. R+3P vs. R+3P), and your opponent offers a draw. Do you accept, or do you wait and see if one of you makes a mistake?
  • Are drawn games "boring" to you?
dbruser

1. Yes. I don't think I could win a R+B v R endgame with half an hour, and playing on would only make me time out.

2. No. I might if he agreed to play me later, or i wasn't feeling up to a game right now. As long as I get to play him some time or another, I would be satisfied. I would probably play a little less aggresively though.

3. No (unless I was clearly losing). I would relish the opportunity to get play a grandmaster, and even better, to have him analize my play.

4. Yes, especially if he played a good game. QvQ is a theoretical draw anyways, and I would feel that he deserves the draw.

trysts

@post #8

-Morality has nothing to do with it.

-Depends on the position.

-No.

travis1010

I don't mind when people draw.  Sometimes they are too evenly matched.  Personally, I always play to win, but at my level (class B player) draws aren't as common as masters and GMs.  If a 200+ rated opponent offered me a draw  on move 1, I'd say no, because that seems fishy.  If, they offered me a draw in a equal/unclear position on move 20, I'd take it if it was a big money tournament, otherwise no.

ChessisGood

Thanks guys for the great answers! Now, here is a story of mine:

In the TN Regional Qualifier, I entered as the top seed, but played badly, getting a forced draw and a win against much lower-rated players. In Round #3, I placed a player rated about 200 points lower than me. However, I knew that we had reached many drawn endgames in the past, and I was intimidated.

At this time, I was exhausted by 70-move endgames, and was hoping for a quick end to the game (Hopefully, a win!). On move three, my opponent offered a draw. After thinking for a moment, I accepted. This was an unrated tournament, and a draw would give me good chances to qualify for state.

Sadly, I only won one of my final two games and ended up with 3/5 points. At this point, it was up to the tiebreaks to decide. For hours (it seemed like it) I waited for the results. In the end, I came in 7th, qualifying by two places!

Looks like a draw worked out pretty well in this instance, but it sure caused a lot of unneeded stress. In a later tournament, I beat the same opponent quite quickly. Nevertheless, one never knows...I could have lost two games and ended up without qualifying.

I will offer some more questions and another story tomorrow.

browni3141
ChessisGood wrote:

Some more questions:

You are beating your opponent in a R+B vs. R endgame. You have about five seconds left, plus the five second delay. Your opponent has 20 minutes. He offers you a draw. Do you accept it? No, 5s per move should be enough to play on. You are a whole point ahead of everyone in the last round of the tournament, except for your opponent, who has 1/2 point less. A draw will get you first place. Your opponent knows this, but a draw will get him clear 2nd as well. There is a lot of money involved, and your opponent asks you if you want a draw before the round actually starts. What do you say? I would say yes, unless it is against tournament rules. If it is then I wouldn't verbally agree and just make a draw over the board. You are allowed one game with analysis against the GM of your choice. On the twelfth move, you see a way to get a quick repetition. Do you take it? Yes, it would be stupid not to play your best against a GM. If you have better moves than the repetion, then you should play one of those. You are playing a blitz game against an equal opponent. You each have only a queen, but he has 10 seconds and no delay. You have plenty of time, but he offers a draw. Do you accept? Of course. You'd have to be a real jerk not to. If you don't he can stop the clocks call over the arbiter if this is an OTB tournament. If this is online, then hopefully you know how to premove and block the opponent afterwards. This has nothing to do with clock management.
waffllemaster
ChessisGood wrote:

To let everyone know, I am researching the strong opposition to draws a great percentage of the chess community has displayed. I would like some input about why you like/dislike draws.

Some questions to consider include:

If a player rated 200 points higher offered you a draw on the first move, would you accept it? If not, why? You have even material against a player rated 200 points lower than you. Looking at the board, you see that he has a mate in 5. You are not sure if he sees it, but he offers you a draw. Do you accept it?

1. No.  If it's online, I want to play, so lets play!  If it's at a tournament then I'm there to learn something from those better than me, so we need to keep playing out the whole game.

2. No.  No one offers a draw to a higher rated player if they see a forced mate, so I would conclude they don't see the mate, and are nervous about the position.

waffllemaster
ChessisGood wrote:

Some more questions:

You are beating your opponent in a R+B vs. R endgame. You have about five seconds left, plus the five second delay. Your opponent has 20 minutes. He offers you a draw. Do you accept it?
 
You are a whole point ahead of everyone in the last round of the tournament, except for your opponent, who has 1/2 point less. A draw will get you first place. Your opponent knows this, but a draw will get him clear 2nd as well. There is a lot of money involved, and your opponent asks you if you want a draw before the round actually starts. What do you say?
 
You are allowed one game with analysis against the GM of your choice. On the twelfth move, you see a way to get a quick repetition. Do you take it?
 
You are playing a blitz game against an equal opponent. You each have only a queen, but he has 10 seconds and no delay. You have plenty of time, but he offers a draw. Do you accept?

1.  No, because there's no risk of losing, I can blitz moves out at 1 second per move to gain time and not worry about the position.  If I want a draw It'll happen later.

2. Sure, if there's a lot of money involved I woudln't mind at all :)

3.  Yes, draws by repetition are part of the game, if he falls into a drawn position against me that's his problem.

4. Yes, (both online and in person) because the position on the board is a draw, and I care more about chess itself than what the clock may try to decide.  (besides they may be able to claim insufficient losing chances or something... I dunno if it's blitz though...)  Even if I happened to win on the clock (say neither of us were paying attention) I would think of it as a draw in my head :p

waffllemaster
ChessisGood wrote:
Is it moral to accept a draw in the first 20 moves, before anything has been decided?
 
You reach a drawn endgame (e.g. R+3P vs. R+3P), and your opponent offers a draw. Do you accept, or do you wait and see if one of you makes a mistake?
 
Are drawn games "boring" to you?

Morality has not much to do with chess.  If I accepted a draw that early It'd be because of a long tournament or prize money.

No, I'd grind it out and wait for a mistake (unless my opponent is much higher rated, then I'd grab the "well earned" draw ;)

No, I like drawn games because that's usually when the opponent relaxes and gets sloppy and you can win if you're very alert :)

Bannockburn

  I had a drawn game the other night-RK vs RK. But I had less time on my clock than he did. So he checked. I checked and for the next 30 or so moves it went the same. But no draw. My "gracious" opponent waited till my time ran out and claimed the win. Bastard.

travis1010

I played a tourney game last night against an opponent 300 pts below me.  He offered me a draw 3 times throughout the game.  I had a better position the whole time and I won easily, so that was kind of annoying.  

In fact I just realized I have never offered a draw unless it was very clearly drawn.  I have no problem with offering draws, but I just would rather prove that its a draw than make an offer early.  The worst is when your opponent offers a draw, you decline, and then go on to lose.

dbruser

Q + K vs Q + K is a draw unless there is a forced win (checkmate or a skewer). Article 10 of the FIDE laws of chess states that when a player has less than two minutes left on their clock during a rapid play finish (the end of a game when all remaining moves must be completed within a limited amount of time), they may claim a draw if their opponent is not attempting to win the game by "normal means" or cannot win the game by "normal means". "Normal means" can be taken to mean the delivery of checkmate or the winning of material. In other words, a draw is claimable if the opponent is merely attempting to win on time, or cannot possibly win except on time. It is up to the arbiter to decide whether such a claim will be granted or not.

dbruser

It is pretty much impossible to lose K+Q vs K+Q, the arbiter might ask you to play a couple of moves first, but even if "If the arbiter has rejected the claim, the opponent shall be awarded two extra minutes time" and it will be a draw because of the 50-move rule anyways.

helltank
ChessisGood wrote:

Some more questions:

You are beating your opponent in a R+B vs. R endgame. You have about five seconds left, plus the five second delay. Your opponent has 20 minutes. He offers you a draw. Do you accept it? You are a whole point ahead of everyone in the last round of the tournament, except for your opponent, who has 1/2 point less. A draw will get you first place. Your opponent knows this, but a draw will get him clear 2nd as well. There is a lot of money involved, and your opponent asks you if you want a draw before the round actually starts. What do you say? You are allowed one game with analysis against the GM of your choice. On the twelfth move, you see a way to get a quick repetition. Do you take it? You are playing a blitz game against an equal opponent. You each have only a queen, but he has 10 seconds and no delay. You have plenty of time, but he offers a draw. Do you accept?

To the original questions:

1)If it's rated, then I get rating points, so of course I accept. If it's not rated, then I'll play on for the fun of it. 

2)No. No one offers draw when they see mate in five. 

To the "more questions":

1)Of course I accept. He can grind you down by playing random moves until you time out. 

2)It's a win-win situation. I get money, he gets second place and less money but still some money. I accept whole-heartedly.

3)I take the repetition... a draw against a GM will be something to brag about for about half a year afterwards so my friends.

4)See the answer to question 1. I will just time him out and win on time. If the arbiter decrees that it's a draw, well, it's the same result, so I have nothing to lose and everything to win. 

1pawndown

Yes, I too take the draw by repetition against a significantly higher rated player when I have lesser or equal material.