Myth about improving

CombatVision

Tony H - Gud ON U
I found a used book by some very famous American Basketball coach in NorthEnd of London,... John Wooden.  I guess he is very famous.  Forgive my ignorance, but wonderful words:

Four Laws of Learning (John Wooden)

  1. Explanation
  2. Demonstration
  3. Imitation
  4. Repetition

The goal is to create a Correct Habit that can be produced instinctively under GREAT Pressure.  To make sure that this goal is achieved, add the following three extra laws of Learning:

  • Repetition
  • Repetition
  • Repetition

I, obviously need to follow my own advise.  ;-))

Great Comment


bobbyDK

I think it is a myth that you improve if you are punished for your mistakes.

CombatVision

Punish the mistakes, but REWARD the successes,.... Everyone want to punish, but a good teacher emphasis your successes and tries to get you to repeat them.  

Nothing succeeds like success

TonyH

I teach the same way, always look for the positive, point out the mistakes but spend 5x as much time on the good stuff. 

DalaiLuke
bobbyDK wrote:

I think it is a myth that you improve if you are punished for your mistakes.

My early years of stock trading are a testament to this!

DalaiLuke
bobbyDK wrote:

I think it is a myth that you improve if you are punished for your mistakes.

My early years of stock trading are a testament to this!

Neoptelemus
guesso wrote:

The topic clearly illustrates the main problem I proposed in the first topic. People are discussing several different study methods yet no one knows which is the most efficient.

Research has shown that not everyone has the same learning style (Mumford & Honey). There are four basic styles and you have to know your own. There is no one way that is the most efficient for everybody.
DalaiLuke

All you need is more than one child and you know there are different learning styles... in a family of 8 kids, we had a huge range of personalities, learning styles, aptitudes toward different subjects that changed at different ages. I understand the allure of keeping things simple, and for any larger classroom, you really have little choice.  But to say everyone generally learns the same is a bit oversimplistic.  

This is one of those areas where everyone has an opinion, and you can hang your hat on any one theory.  We can debate forever.  When it comes to chess, there are certain tactics, combinations, strategies that are inherint in the game.  Fail to learn them at your own risk.

Which ... comes back to practice, practice, practice :)

VULPES_VULPES
aww-rats wrote:

Try my free program, I have 7 lessons posted. See my blog site in my profile. It all comes down to how much time you have and focusing on what you need to know.  Lesson001 pretty much explains it, the subsequent lessons expand on it. My claim is, I can get anyone up to chess master if they will dedicate themselves to my methods. I have a group too, join that.

Advertising?

NajdorfDefense

10000 hours is a good heuristic. If any motivated player spent that much time on their game over, say 5-6 years, they would definitely be a master at the end of it. [As opposed to reading the latest hot opening theory and playing blitz with their friends.] Many of the strongest juniors who became GMs saw the improvement come over 6-8 years [it takes them longer because they are not fully developed and don't have total control over their free time.]

It's like the secret to becoming a good investor - the secret is that there is no secret - it takes time, energy, dedication, perseverance, and hard work and no shortcuts.

CombatVision

Hard work, Repetition, Honest Evaluation of your strengths and weaknesses,....   Repeat, Repeat, Repeat,...   

But something to think about, Capablanca (3 August, 1922) once said, "As to myself, if business men gave as little time to their business as I generally give to chess, they would all go bankrupt in a very short time........Of course, if a man wants to become a leading chess player and has not the great natural ability required for such a thing, he will need more time than a day has hours, but he will never get there."

So guess it is back to tactics, tactics, tactics, at least I have fun,... 

guesso

Everyone seem to go offtopic.

What I intended to say is:
None of the grandmasters have shared a tested method of improving one's playing strength. There is one (or more) since there are famous chess schools which produced great players (e.g.:Botvinnik's school)

What we get as books are just tools but we don't get a detailed manual to use them.

Tactics books: You can repeat the puzzles until you know the solution by only looking at the number of the puzzle but you will still miss tactics in your own games. Conclusion: you are probably doing something wrong

Strategy books: These books are just ordinary game collections grouped by themes, nothing more. Mostly all of them contain the same material with different examples. I'm pretty sure the author does not expect the student to improve, by only examining how a grandmaster who spent all his life playing chess, turns a pawn weakness into a win. The proper way of using these kind of books is unrevealed.

Endgame books: I have studied a couple of rooks ending recently with the help of nalimov tablebases. They are full of only moves, one mistake and your won game is a draw. The author mentions at these positions if you play something else you miss the win. It's nice it shows he knows the endgame but how should I recognise these moves in my games when I'm on my own? Of course no more information is provided, only a long ass variation.

Ultimate conclusion:

What the author says to the student: Figure it out on your own jackass I won't tell you how to get better for a few bucks.

CombatVision

guesso - take a look at Psakhis ' Book Advanced chess tactics,... I think it is the book that you are looking for,... He wrote it on his death bed (but I guess he is back.  Great)   

He tells you like it is and NOT the usual BS.    Unfortunately, you will have to actually read it and go through it and stay off the internet, because his examples take time.  But I have the distinct feeling that he really shared it all as a last laugh on all his GM colleagues.  

Kind of like, "...well I have given the keys to the barbarians and I am passing into the next world.  So I get the last laugh."

Nobody reviews it, because they do not want you to know about how good it is and how close it comes to answering your question.  

Open your wallet one more time,... and engage your brain and you will find what you are looking for,...   

Oh, and turn of the Grey Beast (i.e. computer)

trying to be helpful and NOT to serious  GUD Luck MatieKiss

kco
NajdorfDefense wrote:

10000 hours is a good heuristic. If any motivated player spent that much time on their game over, say 5-6 years, they would definitely be a master at the end of it. [As opposed to reading the latest hot opening theory and playing blitz with their friends.] Many of the strongest juniors who became GMs saw the improvement come over 6-8 years [it takes them longer because they are not fully developed and don't have total control over their free time.]

It's like the secret to becoming a good investor - the secret is that there is no secret - it takes time, energy, dedication, perseverance, and hard work and no shortcuts.

As soon as you said that you gonna give poor andyclifton an ulcer. 

waffllemaster
NajdorfDefense wrote:

10000 hours is a good heuristic. If any motivated player spent that much time on their game over, say 5-6 years, they would definitely be a master at the end of it.

Examples of chess players who you're basing this off of please.

hicetnunc
guesso wrote:

Everyone seem to go offtopic.

What I intended to say is:
None of the grandmasters have shared a tested method of improving one's playing strength. There is one (or more) since there are famous chess schools which produced great players (e.g.:Botvinnik's school)

What we get as books are just tools but we don't get a detailed manual to use them.

(...)

What the author says to the student: Figure it out on your own jackass I won't tell you how to get better for a few bucks.

There are two ways to use chess material :

- immersion : you replay games or model play in typical positions

- active learning : you try to find out the best moves by yourself, than you compare with the solution, then if you're wrong you formulate why in your own words.

Both these methods work. The 1st one may work better for young players. Most GMs have use extensively the 1st method, along playing and analyzing a lot.

hankas
Once there was a china man who left his hometown to learn kungfu. On the way, he met an old man who just killed a wild tiger with a single punch. He asked, "Master, tell me how to be as strong as you". The master said, "Do 10,000 punches every day." He asked again, "How long will it take to be as good as you?" The master replied, "Probably after 10 to 15 years." He was surprised, and thought probably this master did not want to share his secret. On the night, he slipped away and went to look for another master. On his way, he met a young officer who with a single kick shook the foundation of a house and caused the robbers inside to come out and to surrender in fear. He asked the officer, "Sir, teach me how to have a powerful kick like yours." The officer laughed and said, "Here carry all these stuffs and follow me ... on foot. I did that for 7 years following my commander before I got promoted." The man thought to himself, "Darn, these things are heavy. There has to be a simpler way and this officer does not want to me to know his secret." So halfway down the road, he asked for a permission to pee and he fled. The man continued walking. On his way, he saw a monk who ran faster than a horse and walked through the thick vegetation as if he was walking on air. He quietly followed the monk through a very long stairway heading up towards the top of a mountain. Feeling exhausted, he finally reached the infamous Shaolin temple at the mountain top. He asked to meet the abbot. The abbot personally went out to see the man. The man asked the abbot, "Show me how I can run faster than a horse and walk on walls." The abbot smiled and whispered something to a monk. The monk quickly went away and return with a pair of wooden buckets. The abbot said, "Carry these buckets and go down the mountain. There is a well at the foot of the mountain. Carry the water up here until those 13 large jar outside is full of water. Do that every morning and every afternoon for 5 years. Then, after that, come back to me for further lessons." The man carried those buckets down the mountain, but he never returned to the temple. He thought the monks must be trying to keep the secrets all to themselves. So he went to look for another master. To cut the story short, the man went all over China but he never become a kungfu master. All those advice given by the people who replied are all valid. The videos by NM aww_rat are particularly good. It is just that the OP refuses to see those advices and keeps looking for the "magic pill" that will turn him into a chessmaster overnight. Unfortunately, there is no such pills. The infamous Russian or Botvinnik's method requires an insane amount of hardwork and long hours. There is no shortcut.
hankas

Gah, it's hard to post from blackberry. It keeps deleting the extra blank lines. Sorry if the previous post is hard to read. There were supposed to be 4 paragraphs.

boringidiot
zxb995511 wrote:

To master anything you have to spend 10,000 hours on it. If you study chess for 10,000 hours no matter what kind of study it is you will master it. There are no shortcuts to hard work.

I tend to agree with this; hard work is probably the most significant factor. But I also believe that spending the majority of the time on the opening isn't going to turn you into a really good player. I believe (and try to live like that) that tactics and endgames are clearly most important to study. I would guess, 90% of the study time. 

Neslanovac

To go back to the title "Myth..." Every single titled player I personally know work years-about that 10 000 hours- to get where they are now. Some more-some less, some are bright -some not such, and from there comes that difference in strenght and understanding of the game.And every single will tell you Endgame first-Opening last.I did a topic "How to learn chess properly" but not much quality answers were given there.