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Paul Morphy's Rating>2638

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Hammerschlag
arashi_star wrote:

My theory is that Paul Morphy's rating in todays standards, if he happened to come from the grave and was playing as well as he was in his prime from the 1800s his fide rating would be about 2638; while not world champion level, he could still be considered a strong grandmaster.  I came to this conclusion by looking at Morphy's match/tournament scores of his games that were not played at odds or other handicaps.  Also I only mentioned opponents that Morphy played a substantial amount of games against (at least 12) in order to increase the accuracy of my conclusion (this also factors in the idea that chess players often have 'bad days', and with all the traveling players did they often were sick for the first few games in a match). 

His record against Eugene Rousseau in match play was 45/50; which would make his rating at least 358 points higher than Rousseau.

Against Louis Paulsen in tournament and match play his record was 9.5/12; making his rating at least 226 points higher than Paulsen.

Against George Hammond in a match Mophy scored 15/16; making his rating at least 412 points higher than Hammond.

Against John William Schulten in a match Morphy scored 23/24; making his rating at least 457 points higher than Schulten

Against Henry Edward Bird in a match Morphy scored 10.5/12; making his rating at least 320 points higher than Bird.

and finally Morphy scored 14/17 in matches against Adolf Anderson; making Morphy at least 257 points higher than Anderson.

This astounding record is 117/131; 89%.

The rating points are based on his win percentages against those mentioned players, also I only choosed players  that Morphy played a substantial amount of games against in order to get accurate results, and all of the players I listed were pretty good.

I estimated that this lot of masters today would have an average fide rating of todays standards of at the 'very least' 2300, so 2300+338=2638 (338 is average amount of points Morphy is higher than his "rivals.") Also when i say 'very least' it should be noted Adolf Anderson in particular was 'estimated' to be over 2600 by Aprad Elo (the inventor of the rating system in the first place).  One should also note that Aprad Elo himself believed Morphy was 2690.   

On top of this evidence it is said that Morphy often played 8 blindfold games at a time while still managing to win the great majority of the games.  I asked one of my freinds who is a Grandmaster (2496 fide atm) how many blindfold games he could play while still keeping most of his strength, and he replied that he was sure he could play 3 at the same time and maybe a 4th without over exerting himself.  Morphy being able to easily play twice as many blindfold games further proves that he was not just any 'weak grandmaster, strong international master level', and that he could in fact be a strong 2600 rated Grandmaster.

I came to the idea of how much rating points Morphy was stronger than an opponent by plugging in his win percentage into this chart that corresponds with elo ratings http://www.chessville.com/Reference_Center/WinPercentageExpectancies.htm.

Also I got the match and tournament results of Morphy from
^ Edo Historical Chess Ratings – Morphy, Paul ^ Jeremy Spinrad, Collected results 1836–1863 ^ C. Sericano, I grandi matches 1850–1864

which are summarized in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Morphy

If what you say is this (I have bolded and colored red), then Morphy would be more around 2857 is what it seem like what you are actually saying.

Elroch
Estragon wrote:

Chessmetrics uses a method to compensate for rating inflation, but it is seriously flawed.  Neither Anderssen, Bird, nor Paulson played at any such level.  Play over their games - read the notes which have been tested over more than a century and see the sort of mistakes they made.  Compare to players of that rating today - it doesn't work.  Today's 2744 players don't make nearly the dumb mistakes Anderssen did.  Maybe he was 2544 at his peak, which was probably London 1851.

Seriously, look at the Chessmetrics ratings for the lesser master through the late 19th and early 20th centuries, you will find them all laughably overrated.

Morphy's strength cannot be approximated with any scientific accuracy because he was too much stronger than the players he faced.  Remember, his chess career was a way for him to kill time - having passed the bar exam at 18, he had to be 21 to practice in Louisiana, so he played chess.  He never accepted money for playing, except when Anderssen insisted on the traditional stakes and Morphy quietly returned the purse to Anderssen's wife. 

The problem with using a method to correct for rating inflation is that according to Regan's quantitative analysis inflation does not objectively exist. Eg, the objective accuracy of play of a 2700 now is slightly higher than that of a 2700 from 30 years ago. As a result, any correction for "inflation" is really a correction for the general improvement in the standard of play (according to computer metrics). It is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint to say that players in the old days were handicapped by the primitive state of chess knowledge, and their ability to find good moves was hindered by their lack of databases and computers to prepare for matches with, as well as having far less theory to learn from and to be inspired by. But the bottom line is that they made more and bigger mistakes. If Morphy could have been born in the 20th century and somehow the environmental factors that made his chess talent flourish preserved but also he be given access to modern resources and competition to hone his skills, he might have been a stronger player. As it was he was a very strong player for his time, but lacked the brutal precision of a Kasparov. And surely so would Kasparov, it he had been born in the 19th century.

Hammerschlag

I think a lot of people seem to determine that Morphy would not be able to adjust and learn from mistakes; thus he would be destroyed by today's players. I don't believe this to be true because we understand that Morphy was a very intelligent person and also was very talented in chess.

Even if modern day chess players have more Opening knowledge and equal level of Endgame theory than Morphy, I belive that he is smart enough to get out of the Opening with equality and thus he would be able to play the Middlegame on an even level. I also believe that Morphy has equal or better ability tactically and positionally than most GMs today, which I think he would then be able to use to gain a slight advantage heading into an Endgame that could be favorable to him.

This is just my opinion, not base on math or statistics.

Taoism
[COMMENT DELETED]
Taoism

I have no doubt: If Paul Morphy were born in a recent years, he would be the World Chess Champion. It is not about the knowledge of openings, etc, but the innate capability to play and understand chess

ChessisGood

Looking at his games, I'd say that modern grandmasters could withstand many of his attacks, which were futile attempts to trick his opponent. His style of play would never stand against modern GMs like Kramnik.

TonyH

People dont get that ratings are performance evaluation taken at a snap shot in time. Your rating is based on your performace against your own rating pool. I wont go into the math but Chessmetrics describes how he did what he did very well. While its not perfect it does give people an idea how how strong a player was in practical terms. Talent is talent regardless of the era. 

Ben_Dubuque

I read somewhere that Morphy's Style was safer than that of other masters of his day and he only played those saccrificial attacks when they presented themselves. If you look at his games you will find he was the first modern master, developing rapidly. aiming his pieces at his opponents weak squares. and last but not least, finishing the attack correctly and quickly. Also for a guy who can probably see that Queensac in the paulsen game with in a few seconds and use the twelve minutes to check his lines.... what I find odd is that I can often see these wiered attacks on instinct when I see them in a puzzle without a prompt even though I have never seen the game. P.S I don't have an engine.

anyway the point is. If (again the great "what if") Morphy were born in say the early 90's lets say 94. that would make him my age. he would already be around the strength of Carlsen because he would have access to modern theory. he would play the set of oppenings that Modern GM's understand the least. and he would rock at them. He would also have a modern understanding of position and tactics. he would also have some modern endgame theory.

no rant this time. just me being longwinded.

ChessisGood

@jetfighter13: However, if you look at a lot of his games, you can see that the attack could have been stopped by active defense. Of course, a lot of his opponents were gone before they had a chance...

Ben_Dubuque

yeah and I think Morphy understood that.

Morphy was a better person than Fischer so us American's need to rally around Morphy. also didn't stientz have to wait until Morphy Died to rightfully claim the title.

Helzeth

the idea that morphy would have the strength of a 2600 player is simply insane.

There is no other word for it. It's insane.


 

batgirl
ChessisGood wrote:

Looking at his games, I'd say that modern grandmasters could withstand many of his attacks, which were futile attempts to trick his opponent. His style of play would never stand against modern GMs like Kramnik.

While, it's true that people can defend a lot better today, to say Morphy's attacks are tricks is sheer nonsense.  Almost all Morphy's attacks were logical and sound - in fact he was most known for his "solide" conducting of a game.  Maybe the question shouldn't be if Morphy could play if he were transported to today's chess scene, but rather would Kramnik, Kasparov, etc. have fared comparably had they been born in 1837 with no real training, very  limited opportunity to practice (one day a week), few books (and of course, no computers), little theory, no real competition to test one's strength against, with even the weakest semblence of a tournament opportunity a weeks travel away and world-class competitors actually a world away?

batgirl
Helzeth wrote:

the idea that morphy would have the strength of a 2600 player is simply insane.

There is no other word for it. It's insane.


 

You are failing to understand retro-ratings.  They don't measure historic players against current players, but against their contemporaries, and not based of systems used today but by those used during their times.  The assigned rating indicates their relative strength, not some absolute strength. Of course, not all methods of assigning retro-ratings are equal and depending on the method used, different results occur. The sanest of all retro-rating systems assigns Morphy a rating of 2802 at his peak.

Ben_Dubuque

Batgirl can you send me a history of the KG, or post a forum with its history and some games that prove its soundness (a Double Muzio would be nice, and I saw that blog, nice job)

I always like you're writeup's you are like this site's Historian.

Keep up the good work.

batgirl

The KG is sound in that White doesn't lose by force, but it does seem to be drawish.  However, this wasn't the case in the entire nineteenth century.  The KG, while going out of style when the value of deep positional play, coupled with decades of careful research - i.e. development of theory - made less romantic openings more rational for the competitive player.  Even into the 1960s and 70s, a GM could pull out the KG for an occasional win.  But there's too much known theory (for professionals and very good amateurs) to give the opening the power it once held. The same is true for the Evans Gambits which hardly anyone plays anymore.  Even Morphy, who called it the most beautiful of openings and had about a 98% win rate from either side, considered it to be a loss for the first player with best play on both sides.  The Muzio is probably sound, but again, drawish, but it's sharp play is delicious and it gives players a chance to really learn to pit material against initiative. I have mixed results with it, but play it any and every chance I get.  The Double, or Wild, Muzio, is probably unsound, but difficult for a lot of players to defend against and again a delicious opening, nonetheless.


edit: here's a taste of Three Muzio games to show just how delicious they can be.

SchuBomb
uhohspaghettio wrote:

In the immortal game between Anderson and Kieseritzsky, it takes Houdini well over a minute to understand 18. Bd6 is not a huge error at all but a great move.... this in a tactical position where computers are supposed to excel!!! Andersson who Morphy destroyed how many times in a row...

There's a good reason for this. Houdini in fact never realises that it is not a huge error at all, because it is a huge error, and draws a won game with best play.

Scottrf
dannyhume wrote:

Losing the first several games of the match purely on theory, Morphy'd have Carlsen's style and worst chessic fears all worked out and steer the games entirely in that direction.  Morphy would then bitch-slap Carlsen with pawn's odds using the BDG as white every single game thereafter. 

Then Carlsen would whine how he didn't have enough time or databases to analyze Morphy's contemporaneous play and how Morphy had an inherent unfair advantage because he had nothing to lose from this match being the underdog and was too looney to understand the associated psychological pressures. 

Carlsen would then withdraw from the rest of the match just before Morphy took the lead.  And Morphy would think to himself "and he does this for a living?"

One of the worst posts ever on chess.com

dahal32

Okay, Since there seems to have a SUPA DUPA way of guessing the elo ratings, could any one TELL ME WHAT WAS HOWARD SATUNTON RATED?Sorry bud, no answer!

Thank you o_0!

P.s., U cant bring back the dead and you definately cant judge them. Was their intensive coaching like now at the early time? NO, FOR THE SAKE OF SAKENESS, THEY LEARNT IT BY EXPERIENCE AND BY SELF TEACHING!

There was no such thing as an engine or any of the facilities that are TAKEN FOR GRANTED. Thank you, you break my heart by this rediculus underestimation.

Scottrf

Just because engines didn't exist don't make him a better player, they just explain why he might not be as good. But transporting someone from that time and giving him a modern rating based on his play relative to people with engines and a century of analysis isn't really fair either.

DrFrank124c

To this day Morphy is an unsurpassed master of the open games. Just how great was his significance is evident from the fact that after Morphy nothing substantially new has been created in this field. Every player- from beginner to master- should in his practice return again and again to the games of the American genius

--Mikhail Botvinnik