Why is 4. Bd3 Bxd3 5. Qxd3 e6 6. Nf3 Qa5 bad for white?

  • #1

    I have checked this line on a database and it gives black a 71% winning rate. Why is this such a great position for black?

    EDIT: This is for the Caro-kann advance variation.



  • #2

    What are the first three moves?

  • #3

    The first 3 moves and a diagram. w/ be helpful...........

  • #4
    Chess4001 wrote:

    I have checked this line on a database and it gives black a 71% winning rate.

    So what?

     

    Me guesses you are referring to the Caro advance variation. Exchanging the light squared bishops is wrong for quite a few reasons:

    - Leaves white with the "bad" bishop.

    - Eases Black's developmental issues (many times the g8 knight and the f5 bishop get in each other's way).

    - Eliminates the possibility of gaining kingside space by harassing the bishop.

    - If the queens go off the board, e.g. by Qa5(b6)-a6, then white is structurally worse, without chances for active play.

     

    Do you want more?

  • #5

    All I can see is there is a Bf5 move meaning there must be a d5 advance as well. Could be 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. e3 Bf5 which is in the Slav/Semi Slav lines. Only thing is, my DB does not have 6... Qa5 in it at all. Blacks replies here show 6... Nf6 6... Nd7 6... dxc4 and 6... Bd6. It has the ECO code of D10: QGD, Slav Defense.

  • #6

    1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Bf5?

  • #7

    This looks more like 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Bd3?! Bxd3 5.Qxd3 etc.

  • #8

    Oh right. e3 must be played in order to play Bd3.

  • #9
    pfren wrote:
    Chess4001 wrote:

    I have checked this line on a database and it gives black a 71% winning rate.

    So what?

     

    Me guesses you are referring to the Caro advance variation. Exchanging the light squared bishops is wrong for quite a few reasons:

    - Leaves white with the "bad" bishop.

    - Eases Black's developmental issues (many times the g8 knight and the f5 bishop get in each other's way).

    - Eliminates the possibility of gaining kingside space by harassing the bishop.

    - If the queens go off the board, e.g. by Qa5(b6)-a6, then white is structurally worse, without chances for active play.

     

    Do you want more?

    Ty this all makes sense to me. basically white is positionally busted!

  • #10

    OK it must be the CK as pfren suggests as well as the OP since now I got all 7 moves in there. ECO B12 and it says White can play 7. Bd2 (65.1% to Black in 63 games, 7. c3 (58.9% to Black in 56 games), 7. Nbd2 (33.3% to Black in 24 games), 7. Nc3 (62.5% to BLack in 8 games) and 7. Qc3 (100% to Black in 2 games).

    I seriously detest 365chess.com but this is the only online DB I can pull up on this network.

  • #11

    6.Ne2 might make more sense than 6.Nf3.  The idea is to put the other N on f3, e.g. 6...Qa5+ 7.c3 Qa6 8.Qxa6 Nxa6 9.Be3 Ne7 10.Nd2 Nf5 11.Nf3 c5 12.a3 Rc8 13.Kd2.  This position doesn't look terrible for White, his rooks are connected at least, and he can hang onto d4 for dear life.  But White appears to be playing a two result position.

  • #12

    IM pfren is of course correct as to why it isn't a good idea.

    The reason Black scores 71% is that only weak players play it as White.

  • #13
    uhohspaghettio wrote:
    GreenCastleBlock wrote:

    6.Ne2 might make more sense than 6.Nf3.  The idea is to put the other N on f3, e.g. 6...Qa5+ 7.c3 Qa6 8.Qxa6 Nxa6 9.Be3 Ne7 10.Nd2 Nf5 11.Nf3 c5 12.a3 Rc8 13.Kd2.  This position doesn't look terrible for White, his rooks are connected at least, and he can hang onto d4 for dear life.  But White appears to be playing a two result position.

    That's just random nonsense you made up isn't it?

     

    Estragon wrote:

    IM pfren is of course correct as to why it isn't a good idea.

    The reason Black scores 71% is that only weak players play it as White.

     

     Absolutely not and that's a ridiculous claim. It's a well-respected opening. 

    It's true that this line doesn't appear in high level play. It's just simply bad for white...

  • #14
    uhohspaghettio wrote:
      It's a well-respected opening. 

    Even Ivanov would fail to remove that variation from the wastebin.

  • #15

    Uhhh, Stockfish has it as +0.41, that's why everyone has peed his pants.

    Engines also give around +1.30 in a regular King's Indian variation some one dozen moves before white gets mated by force.

  • #16
    pfren wrote:

    - If the queens go off the board, e.g. by Qa5(b6)-a6, then white is structurally worse, without chances for active play.

     

     

    could you please elaborate a bit on this?

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Why is this structure worse for white?

    Black will play for c5 but can't white do the same and strike the base of black's chain with f4-f5?

  • #17
    uhohspaghettio wrote:

    I also don't see what black's going to do with his bishop that makes it so superior to white.  

    I never accused you that you can see such a thing.

    Watch this- white is a GM, and Black some 500 points lower rated:


    Is it enough, or not?

  • #18

    a2-a3 in the French is used to allow White to take back on d4 with a pawn without allowing a Black N into b4.  Also, in normal Advance b2-b4 is seen to try to close the queenside although that does not seem likely in these lines because c4 is weaker than usual.

    It's true that White can operate with a bishop on d4 and not a pawn, but he needs to beware of Black simply piling on the e5 pawn and/or playing ..f6 to be forcing an exchange on f6.  (which Black could meet with ..gxf6 and have a big pawn center)  Especially here as White's Nf3 is blocking his f pawn.

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