Game Drawn by Insufficient Material While I Have Enough Material to Win

utxpnrt

Why does the system conclude this game a draw? I have sufficient material to win the game, that's why I tried to keep the knight. This is important on bullet games. I want you guys to check it out and update your rules because they are wrong. Simply because I only have a knight, doesn't necessarily mean that it is not possible for me to win the game. 

utxpnrt

And also, if I knew that the game was going to be concluded like this, I would definitely try to keep the pawns on board, I had extra time happy.png 

Lagomorph
utxpnrt wrote:

 

 

Why does the system conclude this game a draw? I have sufficient material to win the game, 

Not on this site you dont. Site follows hybrid USCF rules. Basically you will never win on a timeout with K + a piece.

Lagomorph
utxpnrt wrote:

And also, if I knew that the game was going to be concluded like this, I would definitely try to keep the pawns on board I had extra time  

Good to know....just remember next time happy.png

utxpnrt
Lagomorph wrote:
utxpnrt wrote:

And also, if I knew that the game was going to be concluded like this, I would definitely try to keep the pawns on board I had extra time  

Good to know....just remember next time

Thanks for the explanation. Someone also sent me a pm about this topic and here is a link about detailed explanation on that: https://support.chess.com/article/128-what-does-insufficient-mating-material-mean

However, I think this implementation is ridiculous here because technically speaking, you can still mate with a king and a knight while your opponent has an extra bishop. This kind of seems unjust to me but whatever...

Lagomorph
utxpnrt wrote:
Lagomorph wrote:
utxpnrt wrote:

And also, if I knew that the game was going to be concluded like this, I would definitely try to keep the pawns on board I had extra time  

Good to know....just remember next time

Thanks for the explanation. Someone also sent me a pm about this topic and here is a link about detailed explanation on that: https://support.chess.com/article/128-what-does-insufficient-mating-material-mean

However, I think this implementation is ridiculous here because technically speaking, you can still mate with a king and a knight while your opponent has an extra bishop. This kind of seems unjust to me but whatever...

 

Re-read what I wrote in my first reply. This site uses a hybrid USCF rule. It does not use FIDE rules (whereby you would have a win), nor does it follow rules that two blokes in a pub make up. It follows USCF ruls which do not allow helpmates in a timeout calculation..... but perhaps it is easier for you to understand if I say "whatever"

 

Adorn_Aliment

 

acgusta2

What happens if white times out in this position?

White needs to cooperate in order to get checkmated.

Lagomorph
acgusta2 wrote:

What happens if white times out in this position?

White needs to cooperate in order to get checkmated.

FIDE rules : Black wins

USCF Rules : Draw

Chess.com : Black wins

This site uses a simple piece count to determine the result. It does not analyse the board like a human arbiter would.

utxpnrt
Lagomorph wrote:
utxpnrt wrote:
Lagomorph wrote:
utxpnrt wrote:

And also, if I knew that the game was going to be concluded like this, I would definitely try to keep the pawns on board I had extra time  

Good to know....just remember next time

Thanks for the explanation. Someone also sent me a pm about this topic and here is a link about detailed explanation on that: https://support.chess.com/article/128-what-does-insufficient-mating-material-mean

However, I think this implementation is ridiculous here because technically speaking, you can still mate with a king and a knight while your opponent has an extra bishop. This kind of seems unjust to me but whatever...

 

Re-read what I wrote in my first reply. This site uses a hybrid USCF rule. It does not use FIDE rules (whereby you would have a win), nor does it follow rules that two blokes in a pub make up. It follows USCF ruls which do not allow helpmates in a timeout calculation..... but perhaps it is easier for you to understand if I say "whatever"

 

I already understood but I just told my opinion, I think this is unjust and so does FIDE. Instead of being offensive, just learn to respect someone else's opinion.

I still believe this is unjust, and it doesn't matter who created this rule, this is my and FIDE's opinion. You cannot take my winning chance simply because my oponnent's time ran out, simple.

Lagomorph
utxpnrt wrote:

I still believe this is unjust, and it doesn't materr who created this rule, this is my and FIDE's opinion. You cannot take my winning chance simply because my oponnent's time ran out, simple.

whatever set of rules you follow someone is going to be aggrieved.  It is what it is

RonaldJosephCote

  I don't see where Lagomorph was being offensive. You've been here 2 weeks and you asked a question. 

utxpnrt
RonaldJosephCote wrote:

  I don't see where Lagomorph was being offensive. You've been here 2 weeks and you asked a question. 


"...but perhaps it is easier for you to understand if I say 'whatever'"

Do you think this is a nice language? And what do you mean by saying that I've been here for 2 weeks? I played in other sites, so does that make me unexperienced or something? Just check the ratings.

Let us focus on chess instead of trash-talking please.

tpkatsa

Well, since you want to focus on chess, let's do that.

White can't win because with proper play, Black's King can never be winkled out of f6.

Black can't win for lack of material (it doesn't matter whether a theoretical position can be set up - White's not obliged to help Black checkmate him).

No system should allow Black to win on time.

While White shouldn't "properly" win on time either, White does have a Pawn, and Black could be careless and allow White to stalemate the Kt.   So the onus is on Black to properly defend, and so I think Black should be able to lose on time, but I'm open to hearing more.

Here are some tries by White, but Stockfish doesn't think they go anywhere:

1. 57 [+0.00] 1.f4 Ne6 2.Kg4 Nd4 3.Be4 Nb3 4.Bh7 Nc5 5.Kg3 Ne6 6.Be4 Nd4 7.Kh3 Nf5 8.Bd3 Nd4 9.Kg2 Nf5 10.Kf2 Ng7 11.Bc4 Ne8 12.Ke3 Ng7 13.Bd3 Nf5+ 14.Ke4 Ng3+ 15.Kf3 Nf5 16.Bf1 Ng7 17.Kg3 Nf5+ 18.Kf2 Nd6 19.Kg2 Ne8 20.Bd3 Nd6 21.Kh2 Nf5 22.Bc2 Nd6 23.Kg1 Nf5 24.Kf2 Nd6 25.Kf3 Ne8 26.Kg3 Nc7 27.Kh4 Nb5 28.Kh3 Nd6 29.Bd3 Nf5 30.Be4 Nd4

2. 56 [+0.00] 1.Bc4 Ne8 2.Kg4 Ng7 3.f4 Ne8 4.Kf3 Nd6 5.Bd3 Ne8 6.Ke3 Ng7 7.Ke4 Nf5 8.Ba6 Ng7 9.Bc4 Ne6 10.Bf1 Nc5+ 11.Ke3 Ne6 12.Bg2 Nd8 13.Be4 Ne6 14.Kf3 Nd4+ 15.Kf2 Nf5 16.Bg2 Nd6 17.Bf1 Ne4+ 18.Ke3 Nd6 19.Bd3 Nf5+ 20.Kf2 Ng7 21.Bc4 Ne8 22.Ke3 Ng7 23.Kf3 Ne6 24.Ke4 Nc7 25.Bd3 Ne8 26.Kd4 Ng7 27.Bc2 Ne6+ 28.Ke4 Nc5+ 29.Ke3 Ne6 30.Be4 Ng7 31.Bg2 Nf5+ 32.Kf3

3. 56 [+0.00] 1.Kg4 Ne6 2.f4 Nd4 3.Be4 Nb3 4.Bh7 Nc5 5.Kg3 Ne6 6.Be4 Nd4 7.Kh3 Nf5 8.Bd3 Nd4 9.Kg4 Ne6 10.Bc4 Nd4 11.Kg3 Nf5+ 12.Kf2 Ng7 13.Kf3 Nh5 14.Kg4 Ng7 15.Bf1 Ne8 16.Bd3 Ng7 17.Be4 Ne6 18.Bc2 Nc5 19.Kf3 Ne6 20.Kg3 Ng7 21.Kf2 Nf5 22.Bd3 Ng7 23.Bc4 Ne8 24.Ke3 Ng7 25.Bd3 Nf5+ 26.Kf3 Ng7 27.Bh7 Ne8 28.Be4 Ng7 29.Bd5 Ne6

4. 56 [+0.00] 1.Be4 Ne6 2.f4 Nd4 3.Kh3 Nf5 4.Bd3 Nd4 5.Kg4 Ne6 6.Bc4 Nd4 7.Kg3 Nf5+ 8.Kf2 Ng7 9.Kf3 Nh5 10.Kg4 Ng7 11.Bf1 Ne8 12.Bd3 Ng7 13.Be4 Ne6 14.Bc2 Nc5 15.Kf3 Ne6 16.Kg3 Ng7 17.Kf2 Nf5 18.Bd3 Ng7 19.Bc4 Ne8 20.Ke3 Ng7 21.Bd3 Nf5+ 22.Kf3 Ng7 23.Bf1 Ne6 24.Ke3 Nc7 25.Bh3 Ne8 26.Bc8 Ng7 27.Kd3 Nf5 28.Ba6 Ng7 29.Ke3 Ne6

5. 56 [+0.00] 1.Bf1 Ne8 2.f4 Nd6 3.Kf3 Ne8 4.Bd3 Ng7 5.Ke3 Nf5+ 6.Ke4 Ng3+ 7.Kf3 Nf5 8.Bf1 Ng7 9.Kg3 Nf5+ 10.Kf2 Nd6 11.Kg2 Ne8 12.Bd3 Nd6 13.Kh2 Nf5 14.Bc2 Nd6 15.Kg1 Nf5 16.Kf2 Nd6 17.Kf3 Ne8 18.Kg3 Nc7 19.Bd3 Ne6 20.Kg4 Nd4 21.Be4 Nb3 22.Bh7 Nc5 23.Kg3 Ne6 24.Be4 Nd4 25.Kh3 Nf5 26.Bd3 Nd4 27.Kg4 Ne6 28.Bc4 Nd4 29.Kg3 Ne6 30.Be2

utxpnrt

 

tpkatsa wrote:

 

Well, since you want to focus on chess, let's do that.

White can't win because with proper play, Black's King can never be winkled out of f6.

Black can't win for lack of material (it doesn't matter whether a theoretical position can be set up - White's not obliged to help Black checkmate him).

No system should allow Black to win on time.

While White shouldn't "properly" win on time either, White does have a Pawn, and Black could be careless and allow White to stalemate the Kt.   So the onus is on Black to properly defend, and so I think Black should be able to lose on time, but I'm open to hearing more.

Here are some tries by White, but Stockfish doesn't think they go anywhere:

1. 57 [+0.00] 1.f4 Ne6 2.Kg4 Nd4 3.Be4 Nb3 4.Bh7 Nc5 5.Kg3 Ne6 6.Be4 Nd4 7.Kh3 Nf5 8.Bd3 Nd4 9.Kg2 Nf5 10.Kf2 Ng7 11.Bc4 Ne8 12.Ke3 Ng7 13.Bd3 Nf5+ 14.Ke4 Ng3+ 15.Kf3 Nf5 16.Bf1 Ng7 17.Kg3 Nf5+ 18.Kf2 Nd6 19.Kg2 Ne8 20.Bd3 Nd6 21.Kh2 Nf5 22.Bc2 Nd6 23.Kg1 Nf5 24.Kf2 Nd6 25.Kf3 Ne8 26.Kg3 Nc7 27.Kh4 Nb5 28.Kh3 Nd6 29.Bd3 Nf5 30.Be4 Nd4

2. 56 [+0.00] 1.Bc4 Ne8 2.Kg4 Ng7 3.f4 Ne8 4.Kf3 Nd6 5.Bd3 Ne8 6.Ke3 Ng7 7.Ke4 Nf5 8.Ba6 Ng7 9.Bc4 Ne6 10.Bf1 Nc5+ 11.Ke3 Ne6 12.Bg2 Nd8 13.Be4 Ne6 14.Kf3 Nd4+ 15.Kf2 Nf5 16.Bg2 Nd6 17.Bf1 Ne4+ 18.Ke3 Nd6 19.Bd3 Nf5+ 20.Kf2 Ng7 21.Bc4 Ne8 22.Ke3 Ng7 23.Kf3 Ne6 24.Ke4 Nc7 25.Bd3 Ne8 26.Kd4 Ng7 27.Bc2 Ne6+ 28.Ke4 Nc5+ 29.Ke3 Ne6 30.Be4 Ng7 31.Bg2 Nf5+ 32.Kf3

3. 56 [+0.00] 1.Kg4 Ne6 2.f4 Nd4 3.Be4 Nb3 4.Bh7 Nc5 5.Kg3 Ne6 6.Be4 Nd4 7.Kh3 Nf5 8.Bd3 Nd4 9.Kg4 Ne6 10.Bc4 Nd4 11.Kg3 Nf5+ 12.Kf2 Ng7 13.Kf3 Nh5 14.Kg4 Ng7 15.Bf1 Ne8 16.Bd3 Ng7 17.Be4 Ne6 18.Bc2 Nc5 19.Kf3 Ne6 20.Kg3 Ng7 21.Kf2 Nf5 22.Bd3 Ng7 23.Bc4 Ne8 24.Ke3 Ng7 25.Bd3 Nf5+ 26.Kf3 Ng7 27.Bh7 Ne8 28.Be4 Ng7 29.Bd5 Ne6

4. 56 [+0.00] 1.Be4 Ne6 2.f4 Nd4 3.Kh3 Nf5 4.Bd3 Nd4 5.Kg4 Ne6 6.Bc4 Nd4 7.Kg3 Nf5+ 8.Kf2 Ng7 9.Kf3 Nh5 10.Kg4 Ng7 11.Bf1 Ne8 12.Bd3 Ng7 13.Be4 Ne6 14.Bc2 Nc5 15.Kf3 Ne6 16.Kg3 Ng7 17.Kf2 Nf5 18.Bd3 Ng7 19.Bc4 Ne8 20.Ke3 Ng7 21.Bd3 Nf5+ 22.Kf3 Ng7 23.Bf1 Ne6 24.Ke3 Nc7 25.Bh3 Ne8 26.Bc8 Ng7 27.Kd3 Nf5 28.Ba6 Ng7 29.Ke3 Ne6

5. 56 [+0.00] 1.Bf1 Ne8 2.f4 Nd6 3.Kf3 Ne8 4.Bd3 Ng7 5.Ke3 Nf5+ 6.Ke4 Ng3+ 7.Kf3 Nf5 8.Bf1 Ng7 9.Kg3 Nf5+ 10.Kf2 Nd6 11.Kg2 Ne8 12.Bd3 Nd6 13.Kh2 Nf5 14.Bc2 Nd6 15.Kg1 Nf5 16.Kf2 Nd6 17.Kf3 Ne8 18.Kg3 Nc7 19.Bd3 Ne6 20.Kg4 Nd4 21.Be4 Nb3 22.Bh7 Nc5 23.Kg3 Ne6 24.Be4 Nd4 25.Kh3 Nf5 26.Bd3 Nd4 27.Kg4 Ne6 28.Bc4 Nd4 29.Kg3 Ne6 30.Be2

 

Of course it is obvious that this position is a draw and neither side can win if the opponent plays properly.

The issue here is that according to FIDE rules, this game should have been concluded with Black's victory and I was expecting to win because FIDE concludes a game with a draw when the time of the one of the sides runs out only if the other side has no sufficient material to create a checkmate position. I repeat, only checks whether a checkmate position can be created with the pieces on the board. It doesn't make analysis or anything, because otherwise you're assuming that the other player would not be playing wrong and so that he/she would not get mated.

Therefore, I expected to see the same rule implemented here, that's all. This is the first time I face such implementation. So it is not about the analysis or anything, because it is obvious that Black can also simply take the pawn sacrificing the knight and White of course doesn't help his opponent to mate himself/herself. But there should be a standard implementation and it mustn't depend on assumptions in my opinion, and I believe FIDE thinks the same.

 

Lord_Hammer

Chess.com doesn't factor in helpmates, so it's a draw.