Wrong insufficient material rule

  • #41

    cross out forced.

  • #42
    crtexxx wrote:

    2 knights vs king and 2 knights vs king + other pieces could also be a forced mate...the opponent simply has to play badly.

    Good point, 2 N can win if the opponent is trying to lose.  So take that one out. 

  • #43
    Alexander_Donchenko wrote:

    I just played a bullet game which reached the following position:

     

     I played as white and here my opponent "lost" on time. The game was declared a draw in view of insufficient material. But obviosly there is a way to win for white:

    For example black loses his queen and four pawns and promotes a knight. Then he places Ka1 and Na2 and white Kc2 and Bb2 mate. So why was it a draw?

    What are you, playing your 3 year old sister? that's like saying having only two horses it's not insufficient material, like, seriously. I might be 1100 of rating (or less) but even i know that...

  • #44
    jonnin wrote:

    insufficient material should be very simple:

    -no pawns left and the following:

    - 2 knights vs king (or king & 2 knights or king & one minor)

    - 1 minor vs king (etc.. as above)

    - king vs king

    there are other draws, but anythign else on the board *could* be won if the other side played to lose and therefore is not a forced draw.

    Or, conversely,  any game can be won against someone who plays to lose if there is 1 pawn on the board, or 1 rook/queen on the board, or knight & bishop on the board, or more than any of those.

    Actually you can win with two knights

     



  • #45

    Would it help if FIDE created some minor variations of the Laws to cope with the special circumstances of online chess?

  • #46

    If white only has a K + B, I think the key word here is "forced". If white has a forced win, even with just a king and bishop, then black should be able to lose on time (not draw on time). If there is no forced win, black should draw if he "loses" on time. 

  • #47
    woton wrote:

    What everyone forgets is that there is no one set of chess rules.  FIDE have their rules, the USCF have their rules, and Chess.com have their rules .  Each set of rules is slightly different (I imagine that other organizations also have rules that differ slightly from each other) .  You have to know whose rules apply to the game that you are playing.

    +1

  • #48
    thechosen0ne wrote:

    If white only has a K + B, I think the key word here is "forced". If white has a forced win, even with just a king and bishop, then black should be able to lose on time (not draw on time). If there is no forced win, black should draw if he "loses" on time. 

    What if the weaker side (losing on the board/winning on time) has more than just 2 pieces (including the king)? For instance, if he's down by a queen in the midgame? I would suppose that the stronger side would have a forced win, but it can't really be proven. And what about borderline situations where Houdini can find a forced win, but the human player with the stronger position most likely can't?

  • #49
    macer75 wrote:
    thechosen0ne wrote:

    If white only has a K + B, I think the key word here is "forced". If white has a forced win, even with just a king and bishop, then black should be able to lose on time (not draw on time). If there is no forced win, black should draw if he "loses" on time. 

    What if the weaker side (losing on the board/winning on time) has more than just 2 pieces (including the king)? For instance, if he's down by a queen in the midgame? I would suppose that the stronger side would have a forced win, but it can't really be proven. And what about borderline situations where Houdini can find a forced win, but the human player with the stronger position most likely can't?

    The side that is down material and winning on time should be able to claim a win on time provided that (A) he has mating material, or (B) he doesn't have mating material but can find a forced win.

    So it doesn't matter how much material a player is down; as long as he is able to mate, he can claim a win on time. If not, then when his opponent flags, it's a draw.

    It doesn't matter if the stronger side (materialistically) has a forced win if he flags. He will still lose on time if his opponent has mating material, or draw if he doesn't.

  • #50
    thechosen0ne wrote:
    macer75 wrote:
    thechosen0ne wrote:

    If white only has a K + B, I think the key word here is "forced". If white has a forced win, even with just a king and bishop, then black should be able to lose on time (not draw on time). If there is no forced win, black should draw if he "loses" on time. 

    What if the weaker side (losing on the board/winning on time) has more than just 2 pieces (including the king)? For instance, if he's down by a queen in the midgame? I would suppose that the stronger side would have a forced win, but it can't really be proven. And what about borderline situations where Houdini can find a forced win, but the human player with the stronger position most likely can't?

    The side that is down material and winning on time should be able to claim a win on time provided that (A) he has mating material, or (B) he doesn't have mating material but can find a forced win.

    So it doesn't matter how much material a player is down; as long as he is able to mate, he can claim a win on time. If not, then when his opponent flags, it's a draw.

    It doesn't matter if the stronger side (materialistically) has a forced win if he flags. He will still lose on time if his opponent has mating material, or draw if he doesn't.

    Oh, I see what you mean now. That makes sense. So that's how it works on chess.com?

  • #51

    That's how it should work anyway on chess.com. In OTB chess there's a TD to make sound decisions, which is difficult to do when you're online. For example, determining whether there is a forced win in the position should be done by a TD.

  • #52

    Old post, wow... its alive...

  • #53

    I agree!

  • #54

    I think all of this was already covered in "DRAW OR WIN?".  A thread that stopped a while ago.

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