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mate in italien

  • #1

  • #2

    reminds me of my school days

  • #3

    For the record, this is not the Italian. This is a trap from the phillidor's defence called legal's mate

  • #4

    Dude... anything that starts with those first three moves for white and those first 2 moves for black is an Italian game, just not mainline.

  • #5

    You are wrong. Just because you play those moves first know that doesn't mean it is that opening. Here is another way to reach the position through the phillidor's defence e4 e5 nf3 d6 bc4 nc6 nc3 bg4 nxe5 bxd1 bxf7+ ke7 nd5#. By the way after nxe5 black wins a peice with nxe5.

  • #6

    You're supposed to reach it without an N on c6. Regardless of what you call the opening.

  • #7

    Alexmoore - Just because you can reach the same position using Philidor's Defence as well doesn't mean that it is a Philidor's Defence. I don't understand why you think Philidor's Defence would even take priority over the Italian game if you can reach it using either opening. This position isn't one specific opening, but since it started out as an Italian game, that means the game developed from the Italian game (duh).

  • #8

    you need to play 5. h3 before Nxe5 to stop ...Nxe5 winning a piece

  • #9

    White was playing the Italian Game, Black responded with Paris Defense.  

    At any rate, this line is busted if Black responds 5.Nxe5, because of that knight on c6.  

    Without saying it, BiggDoggProblem was right in that this bust wouldn't work if Black instead played the Philidor Defense during "Open Game" phase (prior to White playing his Italian bishop on c4, with Black playing 2.d6 instead of 2.Nc6). 

    What the OP presented as-is however (1.e4 e5, 2.Nf3 Nc6, 3.Bc4), really was the Italian, but as everyone has already pointed out, the same trap from Philidor doesn't work here because of the knight chilling on c6 as was played in Italian game.

    The confusion I see here is that some people are naming the openings based on what should have been played instead of what was actually played in the game's sequence of moves.

  • #10

    Fred Reinfeld lives. I  saw this in one of his books about 50 years ago.

    Of course 5. Nxe5? is a blunder, as 5. ... Bxd1?  Black can bust all this by playing 5. ... Nxe5 and be a piece up.

  • #11

    its true sorry guys.

  • #12
  • #13

    johannw, I hope this doesn't give the false impression that the Legal's Mate line in Italian is entirely broken against the Paris Defense. 

    Make no mistake, if White played 5.h3, the line is playable!  White is in fact up a pawn, or at least up in development in the end.  For a more complete picture, here's the game:

  • #14

    thanks for info


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