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different repertoire for live vs. online

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sajay
pfren wrote:

Opening knowledge and preparation has a very important role to play in grandmaster chess, and correspondence chess (I mean the modern correspondence chess, where everyone is allowed to use an engine).

But for achieving a very decent rating (say 2100 FIDE or something like that) the opening is of very little value.

Want a confession? Ok, here it goes. In my youth I have achieved a FIDE master title and a respectable 2250+ rating, working mainly on openings (I had a very good knowledge of openings I played, as well as openings I did not play). But at some point, I realised that I did not improve at all- despite my good opening knowledge, and excellent tactical skill. I had seriously worked on it, and decided that my rating was pure luck: my positional understanding was nothing to boast about, and my endgame technique was, well, dismal.

I have earned my IM status by working very hard on my positional play. True, this did not eran me more than 150 rating points, but it was enough to get the IM title.

I have also worked hard on my very poor endgame technique. There, my rating gains were rather insigificant, because of me (I usually am exchausted when a game reaches the endgame, and most of the times I play crap). BUT, the in-depth study of the endgame (thank you, mr. Dvoretsky!) has greatly helped me improving my overall understanding of the Royal Game.

One is free to develop his playing strength whatever way he fucking pleases. My obligation, as a trainer, is advicing my students, to never, ever make the same mistakes I did- and one of them, probably the crucial one, is devoting a lot of time in openings.

Understood?

leaning opening is a must for professional chess.. You are an IM becaseu you have learnt openings well... May be as you said the other important things to need to look into.. like improving as a positional player.

solskytz

Dear IM Pfren

 

while it is true that the subject of the OP has been considerably deviated from (and just for completeness, I'll also take the opportunity to inform the OP guy that I'm not going to tell him if my repertoire is different or the same... why give him the advantage of being prepared when he comes to play me one day??) - I still find your posts very interesting, inspiring and instructive - while containing a personal element. 

 

The question that comes up is - how does one work on his positional chess? I know I suck in that department as Chess Mentor, which is dedicated in the higher level to exactly that ability, leaves me stumped time and time again. It gives interesting lessons, but I feel that they touch isolated, random points, and I don't feel that I'm becoming THE positional player who finds plans in every positions, knows the correct moves and ideas, where the pieces should stand, which squares are key - well of course many times I do... but in the more difficult positions, well, no...

This is exactly where a strong computer program cannot help me much, as it doesn't really matter if a certain move is +0.71 or what, even if the engine is right, if you don't understand the key plan, the key structure, the combinations behind the scenes, the endgames and how to conduct them...

So - yes, opening study, tactics training, practice - and then one does hit a wall. In your case it was in 2250. In other cases it's somewhere else, generally at some point between FIDE 2000 and FM... your advice please!

solskytz

IM Pfren Thanks for this tip! I'm sure that this study will also provide entertainment and add more grace and natural flow to my play in general. 

I'm actually studying now (but on a rather slow pace) the Zurich 1953 tournament book - I've promised myself for decades to do it and finally got down to it - pure pleasure, and the commentary is delightful!

About the rest of them - of course if I was 9 or 10 years old (and playing at my current level) I would go through them way faster... but it's good to know the way to go. Thanks again!

- - - - - - - - 

And on quite another note - I'm sure that you aren't objecting, still, to the use of Houdini to check the tactical soundness of some of the author suggestions and evaluations, when I have doubts? Either I'm right, or I learn where I was wrong, and what I didn't see which the author thought was too obvious to mention. 

Of course going through the games with Houdini fired up throughout, would really blur out any wisdom one wants to get from the materials. I let it do its thing only when I feel that my own means of coping with the material are exhausted. It keeps showing me my tactical shortcomings (as I'm sure it does to everyone else, on all levels)

plutonia
pfren wrote:

The greatest way to improve your positional chess is simple:

Study the classics very carefully!

I have mostly gained from studying the games of Capablanca and Petrosian, but any great master (starting from Steinitz- Morphy was a superb player, but studying his games will not help you, because the quality of play of his opponents was really very poor) should do the job.

Capablanca is a must, though, simply because he played almost perfectly most of the times, but his way of playing is very simple: anyone can understand his moves, provided that he pays some attention to the text.

Oh, and one more thing- a very important one:

When studying, use a book. Not a computer, and not an engine. NEVER, EVER use an engine when studying, you will learn nothing, no matter how hard you think you are trying.

 

I will follow this advice.

To be honest I keep thinking that studying openings, and I mean understanding them - studying with a book, not a database - is the best way to build a basic positional understanding.

Perhas I just didn't find any better material, so I'll follow your advice and I'll take a look at Capablanca's games.

jakefusaro

Yeah, I play wild sacrifices on bullet, agressive on blitz, and fairly balanced on longer time controled gamed.

DrawMaster

I have played chess for more than 50 years. Over that time, I've played myriad openings. My results are pretty much the same regardless of opening choice, with most losses having little or nothing to do with either opening choice or opening blunders. My chess performance has been limited and static pretty much because of my failure to improve every OTHER aspect of my game. If, early on, I had heard, understood and followed IM pfren's counsel regarding this aspect of training, I believe my understanding of the game and my performance level would be significantly greater than it turned out. Enjoying the thrill of unwrapping a new package (i.e., learning a new opening) is fun; but if enjoyed to the neglect of the other aspects of the game, it leads to a performance dead end. Just one person's personal experience, highly anecdotal, but burned deeply into my psyche, nonetheless. Smile

SmyslovFan

I agree with pfren's message. Players should not obsess about their openings.

However, I am very guilty of studying correspondence openings to death. I will unflinchingly play the most complex openings possible in correspondence time controls. But as my memory starts to fade a bit, I pick and choose my theoretical battles in real chess. (Yes, OTB chess is real chess, online chess is ephemeral.)

Pfren is completely right about studying positional ideas and endgames. But there's also a place for the study of openings. Just be aware that is not the path to righteousness (elo gain). But like all vices, you can have a lot of fun on that wayward path!

solskytz

IM Pfren Thanks again for your valuable advice and for speaking your mind!

chessmaster102

Very informative thread this one is. One thing I notice when working with other 1700s and maybe even 1800s is they just have a opening repritore that gets you into a reasonable middlegame and having establishing that study tactics and never look back and this usually if not ALWAYS gets someone into the low 1800s high 1700s although ill admit through my chess development I spend wayyyy more time on my positional/concepts with occasional tactic study and very little endgame training added to my studies. Tactical study just doesnt intrest me so I think studying whatever one wants and really focusing on it will get them to a solid Class B or Class A but to go pass that you need to look towards your less intreasting areas I know I will have to look towards tactics study later on in my development but for now im doing fine.

solskytz

Arloest This attack on the OP was illegitimate and uncalled for. The question he asks, in itself, is quite reasonable. Just lay off the guy!

ponz111

My own personal experience was that studying the opening was very important in correspondence chess and the positional and endgame skills somehow came naturally [to me]-- this was before all of this wonderful stuff we have to help us improve our game.

In my day there was very little opening theory and at times I had to make my own theory.  There was opening theory back in say 1987 but nothing like what you all have now. 

blake78613
solskytz wrote:

Arloest This attack on the OP was illegitimate and uncalled for. The question he asks, in itself, is quite reasonable. Just lay off the guy!

I think Arloest had his tongue firmly in his check in his "attack" on OP. 

sajay
plutonia wrote:
pfren wrote:

The greatest way to improve your positional chess is simple:

Study the classics very carefully!

I will follow this advice.

Ditto! thanks

ozzie_c_cobblepot

Yes and no.

These days I typically play the same openings in live vs online -- in other words, my live repertoire, including my 1 0 repertoire, is the same as my OTB repertoire. The value in doing this is that every once in awhile you'll discover a hole in your repertoire, which you always "knew" but probably forgot about. Then make a note of it, and, lest you are rude to your opponent, look it up later.

The one exception really is when I sometimes play this one rather ridiculous variation of the King's Indian, but that is for another day...

ozzie_c_cobblepot

At a high level (IM and up), a database might be even better than the book, because some authors go to great pains to pick games and/or lines which fit their narrative. This is especially a problem for books on black repertoire. In one book I had, the author gave a long line and then said "unclear" or "with chances for both sides" - which was total BS. White was just winning. What was especially funny was that the line is actually okay for black, as long as he doesn't do the "exclam" move recommended by the author.

At a lower level (FM and below), all of the book narratives are perfectly okay to go along with, and provide a great deal of knowledge for those players.

trigs

just like to thank those who took the time to right this thread Smile

solskytz

Thank you for creating it!