Ponziani Opening

Actually after 3. c3  d5 4. Qa4  f6  5. Bb5  Ne7  6. exd5   Qxd5

7. d4  e4  8. c4   Qd8  9. Nfd2   Kf7  IM pfren is showing how Black has the advantage after a follow up and I do not disagree with him on this.

BUT Ponziani LIVES because I have studied this whole line and have something better somewhere in this line and am satisfied that Black gets no advantage at all.  The line with 9. ... Kf7  is one of the recent tries for a refutation of the Ponziani  [if it can be shown that Black gets the better game and White has no other resourse--then it would just about kill the Ponziani]

Maybe someone in vote chess will try and spring this line on our Ponziani Power team? 

In normal openings it`s Black who has to prove that White has no advantage.  In Ponziani it`s White who has to fight for equality if Black knows what to do, as we can see from this discussion.

Pacifique, what you just said is pure garbage. You do not have the slightest clue about the Ponziani. You have not given one line to refute the Ponziani and I doubt if you could even give an equalizing line.

Where did i claim refutation of Ponziani? Your analphabetism does not surprise me anymore. So far you failed to demonstrate advantage for White after:

1) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6 (your garbage analysis and their refutations in this thread shows that it`s easy for White to get into trouble in this line);

2) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4.d4 cd4 5.e5 Nd5;

3) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Ne7 6.Nxe5 Ng6;

4) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Nb8.

Your baseless "blah blah blah" on how good is Ponziani has zero value.

pfren, you may notice in our recent vote chess games we chose the 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4  cxd4  5. e5  Nd5 6. cxd4 line rather than the 6. Qb3 line.

Regarding the line with 9. ...Kf7 as given by Lysyj I do not like the line at all for White and have an alternative. [something that either avoids the whole line or something to improve the line so so that White has the normal opening move advantage.]

I wish more would play into what I call the chapter 1 main line of the Ponziani with 1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  Nf6  4. d4  Nxe4

5. d5  Ne7  6. Nxe5  Ng6 as I really like White's chances.  

Pacifique White has a very nice game after 1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  Nf6 

4. d4  Nxe4  5. d5  Nb8 and if you cannot see this--what can I say?  Most players master and above can plainly see White has both a space and time advantage. And the follow up lines as per Play the Ponziani often come out quite well for White.

By the way it is from about midnight to 5 AM when I made my posts and that is because I rarely sleep but what about some of you responding--insomiacs or maybe live in a differt time zone?

I should inform you that chess has made some progress since Dr. Tarrasch, who would evaluate this position exactly like you do, without bothering  to figure out how White can exploit this "nice game" after 6.Nxe5 Qe7 7.Qd4 Nf6 8.Be2 c5! 9.dxc6 Nxc6 10.Nxc6 dxc6 or 6.Bd3 Nc5 7.Nxe5 d6 8.Nf3 Nxd3+ 9.Qxd3 0-0. 

Pacifique in your line you are  making White move 8. Be2? but that is not the correct line for White.

8.Be3 c5! 9.dxc6 Nxc6 10.Nxc6 dxc6 11.Bc4 (11.Be2 transposes into 8.Be2 line) Be6 12.Nd2 Nd5

Corrected. 10...bxc6 seems to be good alternative too. This line was given to show that there are several playable responses to Ponziani, allowing Black to have a good position.

Do you really think Black has equalized?

Yes, I agree your 10. ...bxc6 is a better try [and the best  move in the position] 

With 10. ... dxc6    Black is not doing well in my opinion.

So your suggestion for White to have advantage after 10...bxc6 is...?

Btw - Black may afford to play 9...bxc6 too.

Pacifique, The first line you gave me ended in 12. Nd2  Nd5 and after 

13. 0-0-0 White had a definite advantage.

Then pfren gave you a better line and the result was the machines gave White the normal opening move advantage but pfren thought it was objectively equal per his opinion [here I slightly disagree with phren--I think White does have the normal first move advantage.]

There are some lines that analysis engines have difficulty evaluating. If this were not trur, the Smith-Morra would have many refutations to it but yet there is not many real solid lines against it barring inaccurate or blundering play by White if I am not mistaken.

Though I neither plat the Ponz or SMG, both are intersting lines to look into at least through the club level of play. I may do more reading on these as well. Thanks to Ponz for giving some new ideas for me to look into.

I asked you question about 9...dxc6 and 10...bxc6 lines - to show how White can have advantage here.

Your response:

1) Arguing on 10...dxc6 line;

2) Making empty claim that White has advantage after 10...bxc6 line without backing it up with variations.

Another evidence that arguing with fanatics like you is waste of time.

Pacifique, you conveniently forget what went on before. 

First you claim to have a good line vs the Ponziani.

Second, you give lines which the book I coauthored says NOT to play. 

Third, I give you the correct line.

Fourth, you expand on the line I gave you and after your expansion you claim that Black has a good position.

Fifth, I show your line where you think Black has a good position and give one move for White and then White clearly has the advantage.

Sixth, pfren, makes a corretion to your very flawed line and you take up the correction as your line also.

Seventh, the correction leads to a position where the machines says White has a normal first move advantage and pfren says he thinks the machines are incorrect in this case and essentially Black has an equal game. I slightly disagree with pfren and think the position gives White the normal first move advantage.

That is the sequence. Can I PROVE that in this one postion White has the normal first move advantage?  No, of course that would be hard to prove.

But you are a very long way away from proving your claim that against the Ponziani Black can get very good positions.  Your claim is somewhat ambigous in the first place as you can say that against any opening. For example, I can claim that against the Ruy Lopez Black can get very good positions and, of course my claim would be true.

So, just to prove a point I claim that against the Ruy Lopez - Black can get very good positions.  DUH!

Demidjinn the Center Counter with 1. e4  d5  2. exd5  Qxd5 used to also be thought of as a very bad opening  [and there was at least some reason as the black queen is developed so early] but now, for most, it is an  opening that even the world champ sometimes plays.

I had at least a part in rehabilitating that opening.  Some still say it is not good but at least most will give concrete variations for their claim.