Tiviakov and the Worall

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Narmi_Helas

Why does Tiviakov play the Worall consistently even when everyone else says that it is inferior to 6.Re1 in the closed variation?

 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1466542

DrawMaster

I guess if you can get a draw against Carlsen with it, it can't be too bad:

http://www.chessdom.com/corus-2010/tiviakov-carlsen-corus

Smile

ThrillerFan

It also avoids certain lines, like the Open Variation (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4), for example.

6.Re1 is probably better than 5.Qe2 in the sense that 5.Qe2 is probably +0.15 while 6.Rb1 is more like +0.25.  Not like one wins, and the other is busted.

pfren

Everybody prefers currently playing d3 instead of Qe2, for a good reason: the ...d5 lines against the Worrall are extremely comfortable for Black- white never manages to set the type of central bind he's envisioning.

5.d3 allows ...Bc5 from Black, while the more popular 5.0-0 Be7 6.d3 allows the Open Spanish, as well as the Arkhangelsk. But still, it's a fully respectable way to play, and surely enough needing way less memorization than the regular closed Ruys.

Oh, and it also avoids the inevitable draw after 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.c3 d5!

ThrillerFan
pfren wrote:

Everybody prefers currently playing d3 instead of Qe2, for a good reason: the ...d5 lines against the Worrall are extremely comfortable for Black- white never manages to set the type of central bind he's envisioning.

5.d3 allows ...Bc5 from Black, while the more popular 5.0-0 Be7 6.d3 allows the Open Spanish, as well as the Arkhangelsk. But still, it's a fully respectable way to play, and surely enough needing way less memorization than the regular closed Ruys.

Oh, and it also avoids the inevitable draw after 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.c3 d5!


Well, you don't have to allow the Marshall if you do play the main lines.  If Black plays 7...O-O instead of 7...d6, there are anti-Marshall lines, the most common being 8.a4 and 8.h3

pfren
ThrillerFan wrote:

Well, you don't have to allow the Marshall if you do play the main lines.  If Black plays 7...O-O instead of 7...d6, there are anti-Marshall lines, the most common being 8.a4 and 8.h3

8.h3 Bb7 9.d3 d5! 10.ed5 Nxd5 11.Nxe5 Nd4 has been analysed exchaustively by Papenin (world's top centaur currently) as giving Black a good game, but apparently the less respectable 11...Nxe5 12.Rxe5 Qd6! is at least equally good: Black has an impressive plus score at top level in the last couple of years.

8.a4 b4! has fallen relatively out of favour since some 20 years ago, quite likely because 9.d3 d6 10.Nbd2 is very similar to the 6.d3 mainlines, but white's options are fewer. Still, it's preferrable to the Marshall, where white has absolutely nothing.

Narmi_Helas

Wait, white has absolutely nothing in the Marshall? What about d3 instead of d4 which is apparently better for white? 

pfren
Narmi_Helas wrote:

Wait, white has absolutely nothing in the Marshall? What about d3 instead of d4 which is apparently better for white? 

This ought to be the most harmless attempt to refute the Marshall.

I finished this sort-of-game a few days ago on LSS:

Good luck trying to find even the slightest hint of an advantage after 14...Qf6! : there isn't any. Actually white may even get into trouble, if he grabs the d5 pawn.
White has his chances only if Black avoids Qf6, when going for more than half a point.

Narmi_Helas

So if white wants a full point they should avoid the Marshall?

pfren
Narmi_Helas wrote:

So if white wants a full point they should avoid the Marshall?

It depends on the opponent of course. But at least in correspondence chess, the Marshall is 95% a draw.

The other thing is that there is a lot of theory in the Marshall. I tend to avoid it, both colors involved at OTB play, as it's not a nice thing to draw as white (or Black) against a much weaker opponent, who's just booked up. I don't mind though playing it (Black) at correspondence chess against strong opponents- there a draw as Black is a good result.

Narmi_Helas

So if black wants a full point is the archangel line or breyer defence good alternatives then?

pfren

The Archangel/NeoArchangelsk is one choice, and the Breyer is another good one. You can add the Nenashev/Graf variation, and the Zaitsev. The Zaitsev is the sharpest, but the problem is the stupid Ng5/f3 draw, which Black can only avoid at a certain disadvantage.

Oh, and of course there is also the Berlin, where theory does not matter very much, but rather the positional understanding of the players.

TwoMove

In the 6d3 line, which also noticed a lot of FIDE 2700+ are playing recently, do you have any ideas how to respond to d6, avoiding the weakening b5 for a few moves? Have quite a few annotated examples of high level games after immediate 6...b5, but none against idea mentioned.

pfren
TwoMove wrote:

In the 6d3 line, which also noticed a lot of FIDE 2700+ are playing recently, do you have any ideas how to respond to d6, avoiding the weakening b5 for a few moves? Have quite a few annotated examples of high level games after immediate 6...b5, but none against idea mentioned.

Search for two recent games by Sasha Grischuk, one against Almasi at the Olympiad, and one against Mamedjarov a few days later. Both won by white.

Narmi_Helas
pfren wrote:

Oh, and of course there is also the Berlin, where theory does not matter very much, but rather the positional understanding of the players.

So does that mean that the berlin wall is not the boring drawing weapon that people say it is?

TwoMove

Thank you pfren will check those out.

pfren
Narmi_Helas wrote:
pfren wrote:

Oh, and of course there is also the Berlin, where theory does not matter very much, but rather the positional understanding of the players.

So does that mean that the berlin wall is not the boring drawing weapon that people say it is?

Aronian claimed that he is playing the Marshall to draw, and the Berlin to win. Laughing

There are no fireworks in the Berlin, but there is a lot of subtle positional elements, which only a strong player can master fully. Sure, Black CAN play the Berlin to draw, but he can also get more ambitious.

Narmi_Helas

That's awesome! Thanks for all your help pfren! Laughing