Ponz Says He Can Refute Ponziani!

It will probably be a draw. Chess engines say so but one little slip by either side....

Please, post an update of the games here.

Especially of that with 1 random

Thanks in advance

1 random game in progress

Two games are finished  first vs Expertise87 Ponz111 Black in all games

The 2nd finished games is FM Bluebird1964 who  is playing without  a chess engine. He received advice or consultation with a 2500 player but I am fairly sure this was before the game. Playing this variation without a chess engine is very hard. These games are unrated

 and chess engines are allowed and even encouraged.

We started a 2nd game  FM Bluebird1964 vs ponz111  this time something a little different!

We started a 2nd game  Expertise87 vs ponz111

There is a game with Mainline_Novelty  on the 12th move in the common position.  White's 13th move is critical...

Here is the last and 7th game of this series FM JMB1020 vs ponz111

He played the 12. Qa6 line

There is a game UIUCBoss vs ponz111 but not part of this exhibition..

Please note when I say "refutation" of the Ponziani--I say this with tongue in cheek as White can always avoid the main lines and play this:

If White doesn't have anything better than equality on move 4, isn't that close enough to a refutation to not be worth quibbling over? Of course, I'm sure it's still playable at club level and as the occasional surprise weapon at higher levels.

Sapientdust  

These lines are very complicated. Thus a player with White can explore through these lines and pick out the Fraser lines which are maybe drawish after 20 some moves but before the 20th move there is room [and in this variation lots of room] for error for either side.

Thus for this variation to be a real threat to the Ponziani, a player would have to discover exactly how to play the Fraser against a bunch  of White replies.  White is not going to play 12. Qa6 ,for example, after looking at these games. 

What I am saying if this:  1. few players at any level [up to say 2300] are going to even try this complicated line [as Black against the Ponziani]. If someone does try this line against is strong Ponziani player then the strong player will have looked through these lines to find the best variation for White. 

Here is what often happened when  I was playing the 15 minute games

1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  d5  [they heard 3. .... d5 a good line vs the Ponziani]

4. Qa4 and now they do not know what to do next?--I have seen this playing experts and masters.

Does this tend to say that with very best play the Ponziani will end in a draw? The answer is "yes" 

However you can say the same thing for any king pawn opening starting with 1. e4  e5 and that includes the very respected Ruy Lopez. Why, say this regarding the Ruy Lopez? Because at the highest levels and that is Centaur Chess the Petroff Defense can hold White to a draw and thus at those levels you may never event get to the Ruy Lopez.  The Petroff

Defense is 1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nf6!

I cannot prove this with a 32 piece tablebase but the tendency at the highest levels has been [for the past 100 years] more and more draws.

But that is at the highest levels and we do not play at the highest levels.

We play at the "practical level" and that is why, the Ponziani has a high success rate [right behind the Ruy Lopez]

By the way, I have been asked why do I as a Ponziani expert and fan show these lines and play these lines against the Ponziani?  There are two reasons:  1. I am always seeking what I call the "truth" in chess even if it might be something to test my Ponziani Opening. 

2. This line is quite entertaining and also very unusual.  Look at the game vs 1 random as one example.  While I get a some criticism for showing these lines---for most players the games and lines are entertaining.

They are also educational--who would have thought there would even be such unusual lines?

For those interested the game 1 random vs ponz111 is over - draw agreed.

Interesting drawn position.   Either side could make a mistake and lose but, for sure, it is a draw with best play.

can you post the position?

1 random vs ponz111 Final Position  game agreed drawn

Thanks for the detailed response, ponz! Lots of food for thought there.

ponz, why you simply didn't captured the bishop on f1?

It's White to move in the given final position

Of course, I had good reasons not to simply capture the bishop on f1. 

Maybe, my worth opponent will explain why?

But he moved his king rather than capture it. I guess because it will remove the pin which stops white doing anything.