Breaking the speed of light

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chessman_calum

But, as we know Elroch, many things quantum related have been discovered by pure mathematical theory and only tested and proved to be true later.

bbrout

The "dimensions" appear as solutions to differential equations required by the theory. It appears these "dimensions" are orthogonal eigen vectors involving zeta functions and Laplace Polynomials. (And other quaint creatures that arize from the depths of the past.) As yet I have not found any reconcilliation for the spin of the earth in this experiment. The "ruler" is calculated from GPS data taking into account the rotation of the earth and heliocentric effects. The clocks on the other hand, use a mutually synchronizing signal between the emitter and detector, which is effected by the rotation of the earth. The GPS data calculates a distance, as far as I can tell, on a non-rotating, stationary sphere. However, OPERA in Italy is moving at 20 m/s faster than CERN in Switzerland. On top of that, the heliocentric effect means everything is moving at about 1 kps. I cannot see where these effects have been taken into account. Perception has nothing to do with it. I cannot see where string theory plays a role either. We have a neutrino burst detected, probably in Sudbury, we look up and see a new supernova from where the neutinos originated. That pretty well assures us that neutrinos and photons travel at the same speed. If they really want to find out, they should fire both neutrinos and photons, perhaps a laser burst, down the tunnel at the same time. That would settle the argument.

Elroch

There is no tunnel.

The evidence from SN1987a is indeed strongly indicative of neutrinos not being superluminal. The experimenters point out that the energy of these neutrinos is very different, and this may be crucial.

My gut feeling has come back to the first one I had: they probably goofed. We may find this out in 2012, as a different experiment attempts to confirm or refute the superluminal result.

Conflagration_Planet
Elroch wrote:

There is no tunnel.

The evidence from SN1987a is indeed strongly indicative of neutrinos not being superluminal. The experimenters point out that the energy of these neutrinos is very different, and this may be crucial.

My gut feeling has come back to the first one I had: they probably goofed. We may find this out in 2012, as a different experiment attempts to confirm or refute the superluminal result.


 I'm looking forward to it.

bbrout

From what Einstein wrote on simultaneity: if you have clocks and rulers at separate places trying to measure instantaneous stuff, you will have severe problems. (paraphrasing, of course). The clock and ruler, as a very high-end overview, have to be in some way combined, in a sense. (Not that good an explanation, sorry). You measure stuff in space-time using light itself. I believe the only way this will be resolved is to repeat the experiment with photons (laser bursts for example) along the same path as the neutrinos. Betcha the photons also will be measured travelling faster than the speed of light by the same margin as the neutrinos. If you have separate clocks and rulers, it becomes a mess trying to deal with simultaneity.

bbrout

Yup:

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/02/breaking-news-error-undoes-faster.html?ref=hp

Eternal_Patzer

Oops!!

Might just be nothing more earthshattering than a loose wire.

http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/23/oops-speed-of-light-may-still-be-the-limit/?hpt=hp_t3

bbrout

I think in this case, it's more than just a wire that may be loose.

disell

And now with the knowledge, nothing is faster than light speed.

Can we say: that could be evidence that string theory is false?

mrd55

Interesting result.  I heard a lot of stuff about 'tachyons, a few years back, that supposedly go faster than light. Is this essentially the same thing, or is there some qualitative difference in the results?  I'd love to think that particles' ability to exceed c means we will be able to as well, but I doubt it. Still, it's great for us sci-fi buffs that authors have been able to do so for decades!

RPaulB
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Elroch

Firstly, experiments show the differences between the neutrino masses are not equal. But the information about the masses is incomplete. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino#Mass

Secondly a lot of neutrinos have far more kinetic energy than mass. This kinetic energy would become infinite at the speed of light.

The space that is measured is our space. Neutrinos move between different points in this space.

Also, all evidence for FTL neutrinos has disappeared, both at CERN and elsewhere. So why do you not believe the scientists?

Conflagration_Planet

How about what I said about photons arriving from a super nova beating higher frequency photons by five seconds over a seven billion year race.

RPaulB
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RPaulB
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RPaulB
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RPaulB
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RPaulB
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Hawksteinman

Electrons might travel faster than light when quantum tunnelling. That's when an electron seems to jump through objects. I think electrons are the only particles that have been observed to do this, but maybe positrons do it as well as they are the antiparticle of electrons.

Elroch

Neutrino masses are currently believed to be around 1.5 eV. There is an upper bound of 2.2 eV for the electron neutrino. Masses will be known with more confidence in 2015. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KATRIN

Oh, and it's essentially certain that all particles tunnel: quantum mechanics says so. But when they do so, you can never detect a speed greater than c.