Bughouse Sim? (Simultaneous bughouse games.) & UI Issues.

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cwfrank

With the introduction of Bughouse on Chess.com, first it has to gain an audience. (Thanks for the club to start the process!)

 

I've also learned to play KoH and Crazyhouse. (Thanks for these options, too. They are extremely helpful learning tools and games.)

 

On the other hand, trying to start these games, sometimes you have to wait (for an audience or other players). That's okay. Minor irritation. Takes time. (Be understanding.)

 

However, a little while ago, I was playing one Bughouse game, and, another started. The tabs to the right to show simultaneous games-in-progress is helpful. BUT, it seems that if you're actively searching and waiting... when a game starts, other searches are generally cancelled.

 

Or are other searches cancelled? I was actively playing one bughouse game, and another started. (My screen switched / flipped to a blank board with other players.)

 

If I try to start searches manually, it doesn't appear that I can create two searches for the same game on the same time-control simultaneously.

 

I've been trying to figure out how to use the "Rematch" button with Bughouse... sometimes you get a re-match, sometimes other players sit-down. Best guess: Those actively paired stay together, versus purely "random" searches. 

 

Sometimes I hit "Rematch" and "New X-minute Round" buttons -- and both appear searching (right tab) when I close the room if it takes more than a few seconds for a re-match. 

 

I've noticed that if I close the room, sometimes starting a new Bughouse search from scratch works right away. (Probably others doing the same instead of hitting "Rematch." Same players, sometimes re-arranged.)

 

It would be nice / helpful for Chess.com to detail the matching logic used for Bughouse games. We could contribute / help with this process.

 

Also, where's the Private chat? Or, do we have to go into our primary settings and allow anyone to message us to create a private Bughouse chat with someone who is not in our friends list? 

 

I object to "private chat" -- because OTB, Bughouse players can hear each other. But, I don't object too much -- I understand technology and progress. It just doesn't seem as fun if you're getting pounded and beat by two friends who collaborate and coordinate matches, other people disable chat by default (I disabled this setting for Bughouse fun), and people who prohibit messages from people who aren't friend's can't have a private chat (such as an NM, CM or IM asking me the other day). But, IRL... you have two boards the same-size next to each other, and you can hear the other team's communications, see their prompts, etc... 

 

Secondary to everything above, sometimes I go to another part of the Chess.com website, make moves in Daily Chess, then click on "Live Chess" and the last live game I played is presented, and I have to close that tab again... WHY? (Especially if it's already been closed -- the same as if a "rematch" or another live game starts, when you click the "X" to close a tab, that tab should remain closed... this leads me to believe there are "matching" issues as it pertains to what live chess thinks a player is doing, or where a player is at in the UI, versus where they actually are or expect to be.)

 

So, in summary: Exit Live Chess, or click the "X" on a live game (completed)... live chess probably shouldn't be taking you back to the last game played if you've closed it out. And, if you can't create two manual searches for the same game on the same time-control... there's no reason a Simul should appear, or other open seeks should be closed... barring the traditional... manual game going, and tournament games start (what I'm familiar with from the Classic Chess.com interface.)

 

Minor Aside: When you click the "X" on either the other board, or the move list for a Bughouse game -- it should have the exact same effect... it should close the game. (Period. End of story. (Live, last game) Should not reappear when hitting refresh or coming back to Live from other portions of the Chess.com website if someone clicked the X -- this should update the local JavaScript cache to the same effect as a new game starting. We should be able to get back to our games for review from our list of games we've played against other players in respective places in either Live or Chess.com sections of the website.)

 

I've noticed a few other minor issues. But above is most often what's on my mind. I don't understand what the deal is with matching and rooms and pairs and games, etc... and it would be helpful if some UI and/or Logic issues were clarified for the community.

 

Otherwise, the other obvious factor is rating range (and settings) for not just one, but the different Chess variants, alongside other settings, etc... Right now it appears that if you constrain settings for one, you constrain them for all. (And this is not a good introduction to a variant. Settings should be per-variant, not global, else it takes that much more time to setup a new "custom" match... and with new games, waiting for a growing audience to catch-on... slows progress.)

 

That said, I'm ultimately extremely grateful and appreciative of the ability to play Bughouse online. Thanks for this!

ChessMN16

Awesome post.

Just to confirm: I've also played several bughouse simultaneous exhibitions Smile. They did not go well Tongue Out.

Edit: On FICS, (I started playing crazyhouse in January so I wouldn't know), I think you can chat privately to your partner. Maybe someone could confirm this? Anyway, the real life equivalent would be whispering or getting crafty with foreign languages / neologisms or something. (And before anyone objects to the neologism idea: you can just choose ten words for a knight, ten for a queen, etc., to keep your opponents guessing.) So, that's my reason for chatting privately to my partners.

cwfrank
ChessMN16 wrote:

... I think you can chat privately to your partner. Maybe someone could confirm this? Anyway, the real life equivalent would be whispering or getting crafty with foreign languages / neologisms or something. (And before anyone objects to the neologism idea: you can just choose ten words for a knight, ten for a queen, etc., to keep your opponents guessing.) So, that's my reason for chatting privately to my partners.

 

Agreed / Understood -- Very familiar with this from Linguistics studies. This is a valid way to handle needing private conversation in company... the same holds OTB vs. Online... you can use the same "online" type of language / syntax to convey the same as you would in normal language -- so, it's technically a wash.

 

Someone said "you can whisper" OTB ... but ... even then you catch the general gist of the conversation and back-and-forth.

 

Same holds as any other means of communication... to keep your conversation truly private, you'd have to "encrypt" (i.e. recent fight over encryption in the United States, privacy law, etc), or just have conversations in private. Any time you have a third party (or more) come into the equation, nothing is considered private under the law, unless it's like corporate law, or specific client-professional type of relationships. And I've never heard of a "correspondence" Bughouse variant (though there could easily be one where team-communications are considered private).

 

In any case, I'm not too against "private" chat... especially for, say, tournament-level among highly rated players... but... not always the case online. (And Crazyhouse tournaments aren't getting that many players... Bughouse tournaments would be much more difficult, and different to arrange.)

 

jooe15

I don't mind the group wide chat, but I do tend to open a separate PM chat with my partner if I know that we will be playing multiple games. 

 

I think the best option would just be to combine the global and local chats. -- Type normally to talk to everyone, or put a / before your comment to only talk to your partner. (Have private messages show up in red or something)

piotr

Thank you for awesome feedback! We are on it to fix the annoyances!

ChessMN16

Hey cwfrank

Yeah I understand that. But if people just come up with ten random words for each bughouse game that mean knight, ten others that mean queen, etc., how would anyone ever figure it out? Unless you can figure out that, say, the 10,000 words they've picked for knights over the years have some common characteristic linguistically, I don't see it happening!

 

Bug is meant to be, well...Fun. It's much more fun to come up with plans with your opponent in private.

cwfrank
ChessMN16 wrote:

Yeah I understand that. But if people just come up with ten random words for each bughouse game that mean knight, ten others that mean queen, etc., how would anyone ever figure it out? Unless you can figure out that, say, the 10,000 words they've picked for knights over the years have some common characteristic linguistically, I don't see it happening!

 

 

How did you learn language in the first place?

If you're in a new country being exposed to a new language, do you not hear common phrases?

And if you hear a common word or phrase (or linguistic variant) said enough in a short period of time, do you not get the general meaning of the term?

 

That is how it happens. (From a basic, normative Linguistics standpoint.)

MGleason

On private chat, I could play with my brother, with both of us sitting in the same room, and we could talk verbally.  If private chat is disabled, our opponents would be limited to public communication.  And that would put them at a disadvantage.

I don't have a problem with private chat.

ChessMN16

@cwfrank: Yeah I get what you're saying but the players will keep picking different words every time. So if at move 10 you need a knight, you say "soczino," and then if you need a knight at move 22 you say "sordica,..." You might even agree with your partner that soczino at even-numbered moves means "queen" and at odd-numbered moves means "knight." Really, there's no telling. In such a simple example, there would be absolutely no way, or common phrase, to figure out what you and your partner mean.

@MGleason: That's what I do with my IRL friend. There's no preventing this, and in all honesty, why would you?

MGleason

@ChessMN16, yeah, since there's no way to 100% prevent private chat between people in the same room (or on skype), it's probably not worth trying to block it.  And why would you?  Both sides can do it.

ChessMN16

Yup. And the thing is, the opposing team can do the same! That's why I see no problem with it.

cwfrank
piotr wrote:

Thank you for awesome feedback! We are on it to fix the annoyances!

 

FYI @piotr: ... 

I just noticed another UI issue. If I click the "X" on either the other game's board tab, or the move list tab (my game)... and then let it sit for a few minutes... a game appears (observing).

 

There's something wrong with the (local) cache. It appears that if a new game is established in that room or board, and you haven't done some other activity on the Live Chess section of the website, the board reloads. (Probably the local client still listening to that particular identifier still in use.)

 

This issue is probably linked somehow with the last game re-loading when you go to another portion of the Chess.com website, and then come back to Live.

 

FWIW: I don't know if this helps, but, the question comes to mind: When I'm seeking a new match or round (bughouse random), and this keeps coming up... am I put in queue for that specific board, or a general pool of players??? -- Why is the UI doing this?

 

Technical notes: Using Chrome (desktop), NOT Incogneto, with Ghostery plugin.

 

If it's helpful, I can play in FireFox and if there's a debug mode, run FireBug and send dumps of output.

piotr

Improvements installed today! Let's give it a go and see what still needs some love!

cwfrank
piotr wrote:

Improvements installed today! Let's give it a go and see what still needs some love!

 

@ChessMN16 and I found one last night. (Haven't tested since server reboot.)

 

1.) Setup Private Chat.

2.) Team up for a bughouse match.

 

If the search dies (paired team) or we refresh it (stop & start again), the private chat dies for the person who created the seek and requested someone as a team member... such that the pair are already in a private chat, and private chat has to be re-started. The original private chat stays available for the person who did not create the seek.

 

We had to open and close (pm) several times while seeking games rather than a persistent private chat.

 

Just something minor we noticed.

ChessMN16

I can confirm. I'll test this today and report back.

neihaos

Chat problem happened me a few times. I think if someone doesn't want to see the chat he should disable it for himself not obstructing other players.

Simultaneous games happened a lot for me too. When I don't have a partner especially and seek a random game, I am afraid to hit rematch still. I hope this is worked out on today's improvements as piotr said.    

ChessMN16

Yeah the chat glitch still happens but only occasionally now. I don't know if it ended up being fixed or what. I couldn't reproduce it when I wanted it to.

 

Bug simuls are also really annoying...I have to make sure every time that I'm not seeking a new game. The system itself should not allow me to seek a new game!

 

Anyway nice work guys. When you get some bugs sorted out, you'll make an awesome experience just become pure bliss happy.png.