Discussions on God and the universe

And God or the universe aren't big?!?

something tells me my point isn't getting across....

I'm not understanding it, sorry.

I am saying that you don't believe the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth."--Genesis 1:1.  You deny this.  Secondly, my point was that God can create the universe however simply He wants.  With God, there isn't a limit to how few components He uses.  Thirdly, it is ridiculous to trust one's improvable and illogical intuition over what God said.  The Bible says "God then the universe", and that beats everything.

You say "something big", and yet God is bigger than anything you could ever possibly imagine, and your entire lifetime is not enough time to get from one side of the universe to the next.  If that is not your point, what is?

Look I'm not going to bother arguing with you. Accepting a new argument is something that you cannot solely be talked into but requires effort on the new argumenters side as well.

(Actually I will bother arguing with you.) Let me put it another way. Imagine this not from the point of veiw of yourself, a tiny insignificant organism constructed from carbon molecules, dependant on the Earth and it's recourses for survival, which compared to you is of barely comprehndable size, yet is still amoungst one of the least significant structures in the universe (If you remove the element of "It's the only planet with life" factor obviously), but from the point of veiw of God, or someone outside the universe. The universe is a mere speck, of only 5 dimension 5 dimensional existence. Probably even just a sphere, and finately big. Also of finate age and will eventually end. When you compare that to an infinate amount of dimensions, and space, then it seems rather small. For one thing, why would God (and this is assuming he's the biggest thing out there) fill up all this potential space with a (by comparison) infinately small universe?

BE LESS SUBJECTIVE PEOPLE!

So you are admitting that God is big, are you not?

And as for your question as to "why", God saw that is was "good".  I haven't read a specific reason, but if there isn't any in the Bible we can find out when we get to Heaven.  The reason why I'm confused is because you are saying you believe the Bible (and I hope that Jesus came, died on the cross, rose again, will come again, etc) and yet you are refusing to accept that God created the universe for no logical reason.  Even from the perspective of an atheist that makes no sense.

I will note that the Bible does never say that there is only God and the universe.  I believe that God created the universe for His glory, and for us to live in that we may experience community with Him.  As for the potential "empty space" God has available, I can not explain why it would not be used, except that He loves us so much that He wouldn't create a "mistress" to spend time with.  Granted the only evidence I have is God's infinite love for us.  But those are my thoughts.

Another thing is that I don't think God can be omnipotent. Have you ever heard of the paradox that goes "Could an omnipotent being create a rock to heavy for him to lift?" There is no answer to this because omnipotency in beings is itself a paradox, and seing as God has a name he has to be a being. Therefore he can't be omnipotoent. And... an existence that was around since the begining would be omnipotent because there would yet have been no rules created to prevent them from being so. This existnce must then have created God and God created the universe.

I never actually said that God was not big you know. He isn't neccessarily anyway. He could just be a very powerful dwarf for all we know. And I am not "refusing to accept that God created the universe for no logical reason" I am merely stating that it is illogical. If you can convince me with rational (or irrational as the case may be) argument that this is true then I will accept that.

D-Plew

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  You have some ideas (five dimensions for instance (Paul mentions four* in Eph 3:18 to which I could add 'time') that I can ponder.  I am grateful that you are willing to discuss and I hope you respond.  I would like to humbly ask you some questions to help me understand what exactly you are saying.

Your god is not omnipotent and maybe a dwarf.  That does not sound like the god you believe in is the same God as described by the Bible.  Would you call yourself a Christian in a strict sense (born again by faith that The Lord Jesus Christ died for your sins according to the Bible, was buried, and rose again) or in a loose sense that your family raised you Christian or attending a church that calls themselves Christian?  To restate something I already mentioned but in a different way:  science (if honest) will point to a creator, however, God must reveal himself for us to know about his character.  Is there any basis (observation) for your speculation that there is something outside of the visible universe or is this a reference to the spiritual realm?  If it is a reference to the spiritual realm who idea's have formed your ideas (who taught you what you know about the spiritual realm:  Bible, hindiusm, buddism, etc.,.)?

Thanks again.

I am sorry you decided not to respond.  I am sorry if I offended you.  Let me elaborate on my thoughts...

Physics uses a fourth dimension to explain the red shift and the expanding universe.  Is this valid?  They seem sure it is and even Biblical physicists do not argue the point.  It matters little to me, but I was pointing out that there is a verse that suggests it might be true.  I was willing to discuss though my knowledge of the subject would quickly be exhausted.

My opinion is that your question to 'prove' that a being cannot be omnipotent seems very disrespectful.  I cannot imagine anyone standing in front of God having the nerve to ask such a question.  God is not at our beck and call to respond to such questions.  God already put rocks so massive into orbit that combined humanity cannot move or alter their orbits.  Go outside and look up at the sky at night.  Still he can lift him.  Do you then think you should laugh, point, and tell him he is less than omnipotent?  There are things God cannot do.  He cannot lie.  He cannot do unjustly, unrighteously, or unholy things.  Because he is holy all sin must be punished.  Either you pay yourself by not believing or you accept his payment plan by believing the gospel.

There are three that bare record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.  Two are spiritual beings.  The Word became flesh to be the Lamb to pay for sin.  He died for sin, was buried, and rose again to be our High priest sitting at the right hand of the throne, until God gives him the authority to come back and rule as the Lion of the tribe of Judah as King of this world.  To be qualified as the Lamb and to be qualified as a High Priest he must be without spot or blemish.  He was born without any original defects (without blemish) because his father was not related to Adam.   He is without stains (spots gained by living in the world) because he was tempted as we are yet without sin. 

Leviticus 21:17-24 says that one with a blemish will not be a priest.  Listed under blemishes is dwarf.  Jesus, the only part of the Godhead that became human was not a dwarf or he would have been disqualified to be Lamb or High Priest.  No disrespect to dwarfs.  I am also disqualified.  I have blemishes and I have spots.   

Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Creation is a witness that there is a creator.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

One of the dangers when you reject acknowledge of a Creator is a reprobate mind which cannot reason correctly.  Examples:

Dr Francis Crick was a co-discoverer of the structure of DNA.  DNA is so wonderfully designed (Creator) that Dr. Crick decided abiogensis theories (origin of life from non-life) on earth could not account for it.  Dr. Crick became a believer of panspermia (life came to earth from another planet).  Ignoring the obvious he cannot reason correctly.

Dr Gould, while working on his pH.D tried to re-construct the evolutionary development of a particular type of shellfish.  His observations lead him to the conclusion that he cannot.  It seems to be stasis of many good designs (Creator) with no intermediates to connect them.  He cannot prove slow evolution in the field his is expert.  Dr. Gould reconstructed the hopeful monster theory into punctuated equalibrium (evolution does not happen much for long periods of time and then happens very rapidly).  Ignore the obvious and lose ability to reason logically.

Some physicists have noticed that constants (Hubble, etc.,.) seem to be very fine tuned to allow the universe to exist and life to exist.  (Good design=Creator).  It is incredible that this is chance so they think there are muliple universes and we just happen to live in the only one that can sustain life.  I thought this might be something you had heard and were repeating.

The people you meet and the books you read really mold the way you think.  I was wondering what books you have been reading to get your ideas and what people have influenced your thinking.  I apologize if my strong opinions have shut down you willingness to talk.

Wow, thats long.  Do you think you could give me a summary? I actually did write a fairly long reply but then it failed to post so I thought "damn." and went and did something else.

Good to hear.  The summary is the first comment.

I had been meaning to rewrite the reply but usually forgot.

You make a very good argument. I very much like "Creation is a witness that there is a creator." Genius really. Did you envent that or is it a quote?

Anyway, what I have said is just speculation and I do not yet have any set opinion on philosophy. Who influenced me? Can't think of anyone particularly to be honest. I was not specifically referencing a spiritual realm or anything. Doesn't your model of creation just seem to small? Too simple? God and the universe? If God had room to create the universe then he isn't omnipresent. And if he isn't omnipresent then existence is empty. Unless you add something else to the equation. 

Also, your evidence that humans can't reason preoperly seems more like evidence of how lacking common sense most scientist are. Unfortunately this has already been proven many times over.

 paraphrase of Romans 1:20:

 Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 No, No, and yes.

Either god is what you think he is, your personal ideas formed in your mind, each person's ideas a little varied, and therefore god is different for each person, and therefore he is not really god, but an idea in your mind and not worthy to know.  (this is an idol that you created in your own heart, and therefore a broken commandment)

Or God is soveriegn and reveals himself.  In which case I am not allowed to define Him in my mind, but must rely on him to reveal Himself to me.  This would be a God worth knowing and learning about. 

(II Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;)

I read the Bible-God's revelation about Himself-to learn about God and modify my beliefs to what I read.  Each time I read it through I have learned more stuff.  I do not modify the Bible to fit my beliefs.