From Protestant to Orthodox

Welcome brother!

You choose the narrow way.

I wish you a blessed trip!..

Can you say a little more about your experiences, especially about what kinds of resistance you're facing? 

I haven't gone through this exact thing myself, though I am a convert (I was an atheist before I converted to Orthodoxy, and my wife is cradle Orthodox) but I've watched a LOT of friends and acquaintances go through just what you're facing.  It's very common, and I'll be happy to chat about it as much as you like.

Dear Michael,

In North America, your situation is quite common for people entering the Church.  Just from what you've said so far (and I hope you will say more so the conversation can continue) my thoughts run as follows:

1.  Be very patient with everyone else in your life.  Very very patient.  Just as this is a "Copernican inversion" for you, it is as much an inversion for them...except they are on the outside of Orthodoxy, and therefore all the things that make it so compelling for you (I wonder if you could give some more detail about this, by the way).  Thus, they very genuinely do not understand.  One almost never encounters informed criticism or resistance to Orthodoxy in North America, in my view.  Instead, one encounters people who themselves admit that they don't know a thing about us except that we are very different from what they're used to. 

2.  To the same end, I would counsel against going on a crusade for your new beliefs.  Naturally, if people ask, you ought to answer honestly and politely, and certainly  never be ashamed of what you have come to embrace.  However, it is usually counter-productive to get into shoving things down anyone's throat.  This counts double for your wife.  I have had many male friends going through this with spouses, and when they push their wives too hard, the result is always terrible.

3.  Building from this point, I have also witnessed time and again that with gentle, patient, prayerful love, a lot of men like you find that their wives' hearts slowly warm to Orthodoxy.  Then (and this often happens VERY suddenly) I have seen many wives suddenly decide to convert, and from that day on it is the woman, not the man, dragging her husband forward in the faith.  Women are very often slow and careful about these things, but if and when they do convert, they are much more faithful than us men most of the time.

4.  You've made the right choice about leaving your worship leader position.  You can't be true to your duties there, or to yourself, by living in two worlds like that.  It would be fair to no one for you to continue.  You have made a wise and courageous choice.

5.  Managing the doubts, fears etc. is the really hard part now, and it will not be easy.  Even years down the road, you will have plenty of doubts.  Be patient with yourself, be prayerful, and don't lose track of what brought you here.

6.  The most important thing to do right now is find a parish church in your area where you feel comfortable, and build a relationship with the priest there.  This relationship with a priest will be critical for getting the advice you need, and obviously for actually being received into the Church.  Not every priest is used to dealing with converts (a lot of highly ethnic churches may have priests like this) so if you feel you're not being supported, don't be afraid to seek out another parish where the priest is more accustomed to your situation.  Start attending liturgy every Sunday, and as many other services as you can.  Ask your priest for a prayer rule and keep it.  Keep the fasts in counsel with your priest (he may advise you to ease into the fasts at first).  Take a deep breath.  Orthodoxy is something life-long...a marriage, not a passionate love affair.

SO

Remember that this is a long process.  Typically, to become Orthodox requires at least a one to two year period as a catechumen.  There is great wisdom in the Church's attitude here.  A conversion doesn't happen overnight.  Expect rough waters both within yourself and within those around you.  This won't be easy.

Yet, if you have come to that point of no return, then you know full well what God's will for you is.  You  must follow it, come what may.  Courage is a virtue--keep it in your heart.  Pray as much as you can, especially using an Orthodox prayer book and the Psalms.  Saying the same Holy words every day will help you build a rhythm so that you are not relying on your own feelings and ideas through all this.

7.  Finally, when it comes to those around you, remember that resistance doesn't usually last all that long.  Most of your friends and family will never convert, but once they realize that you haven't joined a crazy cult, that you still speak with them, still love them, still pray for them, still go about your day trying to love God, they will almost invariably accept your conversion quickly.  Remember that people are honestly worried about you right now, but it won't take long until they see they had nothing to worry about, and that you are just a man pursuing God's Will like you always were. 

You are in good company, and you are in my prayers.

Yours in Christ,

   -Daniel

Michael,

I'm so sorry to hear that...

That has happened to me a couple of times on this site.  For big posts, it's better to write it in a word processor and then post.

I have found, though, that pressing the back button on my web-browser will at least bring the text back up in the box.  Then I can at least copy it, past it into a new box, and post.

Anyway, very much looking forward to your reply, so I do hope you'll try again, though I know how terribly frustrating that can be.

Yours,

   -D.

Dear Michael,

  I'm very sorry to hear about what's going on in your marriage.  You have been consistently in our prayers, and will continue to be.

  Your wife's reaction sounds quite a bit stronger than what I have typically seen for people in your position.  Most people will experience some resistance from their spouses, but this seems like a lot, indeed.

  Without knowing the two of you personally, I'm not sure how much there is to say that will be helpful.  I guess the only advice I would have would be to make sure you are focusing on keeping your relationship strong while gaining the space you need in the immediate future in order to attend services and the like.  I would avoid making any attempts, at present, to convince your wife about your new convictions.  Those conversations can be had slowly and prayerfully over time.  The top priority is to be able to come to a place in your relationship where you can be pursuing what you need to pursue spiritually, while not antagonizing each other.  She will need lots of reassurance right now.  Any convincing that might come can come later.

  In the end, you can only control your own side of that.  Though your case is severe, many people I've known in similar positions tend to find that once they start living an Orthodox life, their loved ones quickly realize that it isn't so bad--that it doesn't threaten your relationships and the like.  It can be a serious struggle to gain that space at first, though.

  One of the problems with all this, if you're coming from a Protestant background (I think you are, right?) or even just a Western secular background, is that people in the West assume that we believe that anyone who is not Orthodox is automatically going to hell or something.  This is not at all the Orthodox position, but Westerners tend to import their own misunderstandings about salvation onto us, and then assume that your conversion amounts to a condemnation of everyone else.  You can, of course, explain that this is not what it means, but in my experience people only start to really believe you when they see it played out--see that you do not sit in judgement about everything they do, or expect them to behave as an Orthodox if they are not, or start being nasty and haughty or something.  A lot of Westerners literally cannot conceive of a religious tradition that, like Orthodoxy, takes truth and doctrine very seriously, yet is not built on the assumption that everyone outside itself is damned forever.  You have to live this out for them if they are going to see that it is possible.

So, I guess I would try to remain patient.  But, you obviously also have to be firm.  You need spiritual nourishment--you can't just starve yourself.

To this end, I agree with you that waiting for one's spouse forever is not very beautiful.  Being patient with one's spouse is crucial--and waiting (even for years) is often the right way to go about things.  But, to do so forever does not make a lot of sense to me.  We cannot just go live in the desert--we need nourishment--and most of us make for lousy husbands if we are starving, resentful, and spiritually dead inside.  You do have to tend to yourself for your own sake and for hers.  That means you do, for sure, need at least the space to attend services, do readings, and the like.  Foregoing that would be like agreeing to starve yourself rather than hurt your wife's feelings by breaking the news that you don't like her cooking.  It's not easy--but it's necessary in the end.

There is a man in our parish right now whose wife has become very comfortable with Orthodoxy, but does not wish to convert.  He has waited many years but now, with her consent, he is moving forward and will be baptized probably this year.  He had hoped they might both enter together, and of course I'm sure he still hopes his wife will become Orthodox eventually--but in the end he, his wife, and our priest decided that he needs to press forward, alone if need be.  Though she's not ready for Orthodoxy herself, I think she has at least come to see that this is what her husband needs to continue growing in his love for God, for her, for their children, and for all creation.  Seeing that, how could she want him to do anything else?

What you absolutely must try to accomplish in the near term is at least a cease-fire with your wife that allows you to get the spiritual nourishment you need.  Maybe it would have some affect to give a sincere, patient, and loving appeal to the fact that this is about you, and what you have come to need in order to be a good and faithful husband to her.

In the end, it is possible, if necessary, for you to become Orthodox while she remains outside the Church.  That's never ideal, but it might give her some comfort to know that.  Mixed marriages are a reality today.  They are not easy by any means--but the Church recognizes that in our broken world, we sometimes have to take harder roads than we would like. Her spiritual road need not be in lock step with yours, but it also must not become a barricade for yours.  That's the balance.

Really, all that is at stake right now is your own personal spiritual health.  Maybe some good conversation with your wife and a priest will help to create the space you need.  Ask her forgiveness, show her you understand your own mistakes in this.  That is a huge part of being Orthodox.  Make it clear that you need to pursue Orthodoxy because you know you need it to grow in your love for God and for her.  This is about loving her, not judging her, and it is about learning to love her more and better, not pushing her away as you enter the Church.

I pray that there is a way for her to really come to see how true that all is.  Remain patient.  Pray constantly.  God will guide you through, and He will guide your wife as well.

Sorry for rambling here.  I hope there is some help in there somewhere...

Yours in Christ,

   -D.

I pray for you and your family.

God be with you!

Dear Michael,

What wonderful news for advent.  Our family has been praying for you every day.

Your last few paragraphs are very beautiful, and fill me with a lot of joy.  It seems clear that you have experienced a real conversion of the heart--coming to reall understand and accept the Orthodox approach to the human relationship to God.  The cleansing of the heart and soul that God works within us takes a lifetime and more--but I can assure you that after 10 years as an Orthodox Christian, God's work in me in this regard has not ceased, slowed or paused.  It seems nearly every day I look back at myself and realize more and more fully how broken and needful of God that I am--and in turning to Him in prayer, I find myself ever more able to love, pray, and seek His face.  God's gift of Himself boggles the mind--and in its infinity, we are invited to grow into it and into Him forever.

Orthodox life is also often hard.  It takes a lot of discipline to keep ourselves from pushing God right back out of our lives--and we always have the freedom to do that.  But when we struggle to keep ourselves from putting up these barriers, God is there.

And just wait until you have been accepted into the Church and can receive the sacraments fully.  I am quite frankly a very skeptical person about religious experiences...but something happens in the Eucharist, Confession, Unction--and certainly in Baptism and Chrismation.  Something happens there that is other-worldly...God's presence as a physical thing, real in us--impossible to describe.  This is why our spiritual lives are grounded in these sacraments.  You know this, I am sure--but when you start to really experience it, the effect is more than you can expect.

I think you're quite right not to worry about preaching your new faith in a rational way.  There is a time and place for doing that, but definitely for a new convert you belong exactly where you are--standing silently in the Church and absorbing her wisdom, and God's presence there.  It is well worth remembering that this silent place is the holiest of places in the Church.  It is where we all wish we could be all the time.  Those of us who do step away to do ministries, or give lectures, or write books, or have theological discussions--we are stepping down and away from the Holy silence of God's love.  It is something we have to do sometimes, but you are right to avoid desiring it.  The place we all wish to be is the place that you are blessed to be in right now--and may well stay in forever.

Keep loving and praying for your wife.  It sounds like God has blessed you with a new found patience about her--don't lose it.  It could take years or decades for her to have a change of heart about the Church, or it could never happen at all.  But we can never focus on the result in someone else--all we can focus on is our loving prayers for them.  These are never ever wasted, no matter how little seems to come from them sometimes.

We will continue to pray for you and your family.  I am so glad that the peace you have desired has begun to take shape a little for your.  Now just imagine the peace of the Kingdom that is God Himself who invites us to become wholly united to Himself through His incarnation, death, and resurrection!

A blessed advent to you.  And congratulations on the new baby!  What a wonderful gift.

Yours,

   -D.

Dear Michael,

The question is far from obscure, and I've never met a convert from a Protestant background who wasn't troubled by it at least to some extent.

I can tell you the following.

First, the preferred method of receiving a new convert varies depending on jurisdiction.  I was baptized in a Presbyterian church as a baby, with triple immersion and in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  When I entered the Orthodox Church it was with the Greek Archdiocese of America.  The preference in that archdiocese is not to re-baptize, in part for the reason you cite ("one baptism").  I was asked whether I really wanted to be baptized again (I didn't), but also told that it was more usual for someone like me to be chrismated.  So, that is what was done--and there are many faithful Orthodox like me who were received by Chrismation only.

However, in many Slavic (or formerly slavic) jurisdictions, baptism is the preferred means of accepting all converts, even those from other Christian groups.

So, how can there be differences?

There are several very ancient canons on the question that state that all baptisms done in the name of the "Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (the formula used by Jesus in scripture) are technically legitimate.  It is not the person baptizing who matters, but the form of the baptism.  These canons were developed in response to the problem of what to do about people who were baptized by priests who eventually fell into heresy or apostacized from the Church.  It was decided that despite such priests falling away, the baptisms remained legitimate.  These canons do not mention the number of immersions, so some bishops today will accept a single immersion baptism that is done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  (Note: it has to be these names--some new-age groups will switch out these names, using three different ones.  Others will use just the name of Jesus.  Such baptisms can't be recognized canonically).

So, many (not all) people would say that if your baptism was in the correct formula, then it is legitimate, and you don't need to be baptized again.  You didn't mention which formula was used in your post, so I'm not sure here.

So, why might someone say that you should be rebaptized?  First, these canons are extremely ancient (from the first few Centuries).  The fathers who produced them probably could not have imagined the amount of diversity that now exists in the form of baptism rites, even those that use the correct formula.  In their day, all baptisms basically looked Orthodox, and they probably took for granted that a more-or-less Orthodox rite was just how things were done...by everyone, even the staunchest heretics.  So, it is tough to know whether the "bottom line" issue of the three words really remains the bottom line when dealing with something like a Pentecostal baptism rite that is in every other way profoundly different from the Orthodox rite.

Second, with many denominations it can be hard to be absolutely certain what was said at a baptism.  In my case, my priest pulled out a document from the diocese that listed all the groups that use the correct formula in their baptism rites in North America.  In my case, being Presbyterian, the situation was very clear.  However, Pentecostal groups (and others) can vary radically from community to community.  So, if you had been baptized as a baby in a Pentecostal group, I would expect that most bishops would prefer to baptize you again because they couldn't be certain of how it was done.  Pentecostalism lacks the central structure that would insure the use of a specific formula--and this is increasingly true within other Protestant groups too, even now in many "main-line" denominations.  Some of these have begun allowing their congregations to change the formula if they wish.  It would be a bigger problem to receive a person by Chrismation who had never been baptized according to Christ's formula than it would to re-baptize someone who had.  So, many bishops are becoming increasingly wary of Protestant baptisms and I would expect most bishops to be very hesitant about a Pentecostal baptism owing to the extreme diversity of practices that exists under that banner.

Now, if you remember your baptism, then you know what was said--so at least you have that information.

Third, many bishops prefer baptism for men especially.  The reason is that if you have committed a very grave crime since your baptism (like murder, for instance) you would be barred from the priesthood--but, if you are received into the Orthodox Church through baptism, then the serious crime would be washed away, and you would be eligible.  Especially for people who were baptized as a baby, this may turn out to matter if they lived a rough life for a while, but repented and subsequently feel called to the priesthood.  So, some bishops would rather just cover their bases and receive all men by baptism rather than have a problem with a possible ordination later.

So, it's a very complex issue regarding baptism vs. chrismation.

There is one last "third way" option that I think is becoming more common in North America.  This is to receive converts by conditional baptism.  I recently witnessed this in a case of a dear fried who had feelings very similar to yours about his previous baptism.  The rite is simply the Orthodox rite of baptism, except, before he begins, the priest says a single line noting that the person is being baptized "if not already baptized."

The history of that rite goes back to dealing with emergency baptisms.  If, for instance, you had a very sick newborn who looked like she might die, and no priest was available, a lay person could (and would) baptize the baby however they could, using the three-name formula (but probably not able to do much else of the normal service).  In such cases, if the baby were to pull through by God's Grace, the community would desire the joy of a regular baptism, and so a conditional baptism would be performed.  There is nothing illegitimate about an emergency baptism by a lay person in principle, but it is a comfort to everyone involved to follow it with a conditional baptism if this becomes possible.

In my friend's case, that little phrase at the start of the service meant a great deal, and gave him a lot of comfort.  I expect that in jurisdictions that prefer baptism, this will probably start to become more and more common as a way of receiving former Protestants.  You could ask your priest about it--it may be an option for you that feels right all the way around.

So, that's the run-down of some of the principled issues involved here.  Practically speaking, this is what I would say.

1.  If you were not baptized specifically in the name of the "Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" then there is no way to receive you into the Church other than baptism.  That much is universally agreed.

But, if you were, Chrismation is technically an option.  On this:

2.  Canon law is very complicated in the Orthodox Church, and the only people rightly entrusted to sort through it are the bishops.  I am not a bishop, and so I will not make any pronouncement here about what "should' happen to you or anyone else.  The biggest thing I can say is that you should trust your bishop (or most often your priest, serving as his designate), do what he says (feel free to talk it over, of course), and then let it go.  The question of whether the right thing was done is one that your bishop will answer for at the judgement--not you.  If you do what he instructs, then you have done the right thing, period.

3.  Feel free to discuss your situation, your feelings, what your previous baptism meant to you, etc.  Feel free to express your preference to your priest and/or bishop.  If they strongly prefer to baptize you, feel free to ask why so that you can understand.  There is nothing wrong with any of that.  In the end, though, I personally am very very grateful that my priest and bishop made a decision about this for me.  I did not then, nor do I now, have the wisdom required to navigate these difficult questions.  So, take a lot of comfort that it isn't your call.  Bishops have a terribly difficult job to do.  That is why we pray for them so much--because they take on these burdens on our behalf.

4.  Even if you are received by baptism, this will never mean that your experience at your first baptism was necessarily wrong, or evil, or meaningless.  I had many important spiritual experiences before becoming Orthodox that were crucial to my getting here in the end.  These are all steps on the way, and you can be grateful for whatever Grace you did receive in your first baptism and, if it was a true step toward God, you can always look back on it with fondness and love no matter what.  If you are received into the Church by baptism it will be because your bishop prefers this for various canonical and practical reasons.  If your first baptism helped get you here, then you will always know that--and that is all you really need to know.  Leave your bishop to face Jesus Christ on the question of its legitimacy.

Okay, so the bottom line is that you should talk with your priest about this, and you two will figure it out together.  It sounds like your prepared to do what he ends up requiring, and that is a very good thing.  But asking questions and having a preference is also okay--so long as you aren't making absolute demands.  I cannot count the number of times that I have submitted to a Church discipline that I think is wrong or doesn't make sense.  We do this as Orthodox Christians because we are not our own shepherds.  And if those disciplines were the wrong thing to do, it will be my pastors, not me, who answer for those mistakes.  There is a lot of comfort in that.

Yours in Christ,

   -D.

Dear Michael,

The Orthodox sacrament is always with triple immersion.  Ideally it is done in "living water" like a river or lake, though much more often today it is done in a font in a church.  Technically, it could even be done without any water at all if you and I were in the desert and you needed to be baptized ASAP.  Doesn't happen much.  ;)

So, we certainly do full immersion and do it three times, but the question of whether your previous baptism is illegitimate for not doing that is separate, and complicated (as above).  Some people do say that, but not necessarily everyone.  My baptism would have been triple, but by sprinkling, for instance--not the Orthodox practice, but legitimate in the eyes of the bishop who received me.

Anyway, as you say--your priest and bishop will sort through these things.  And whatever God did in your first baptism, He did--being baptized again isn't a rejection of that, of course.

I'm very glad to hear about your wife's experience with your priest--and I'm glad he's being sensitive about these things.  I think I've said before that for every convert I've ever known, there is always at least some discomfort on the part of friends and family at first.  Orthodoxy is a huge unknown to them, and they can fill it up with all their worries.  They may literally believe you're joining a cult (oh how far from a cult is the disorganized mess of Orthodoxy!)  They also tend to assume that we think anyone who isn't with us is hell-bound...a common belief in the West, but not our belief.  But, as time goes by, they realize that Orthodox Christians are very normal people, seldom "in-your-face" about religious issues--just trying to live our spiritual lives and love others, and that we don't make any assumptions about other peoples' salvation, so we can treat them with love and respect even if they reject our faith.  When people see this, they relax quite a bit.  They don't necessarily become Orthodox, of course--but at least their worries are assuaged.  Though I have no way of knowing what your wife will come to think about the Church for herself, I can just about guarantee that with time she will at least realize that there's nothing to worry about on your behalf.

I was baptized Protestant, as I said, and my family was in regular attendance at a church until I was about 6.  We left due to a bad pastor and never returned to another congregation.  After that I was nominally Christian, I guess, until my teenage years when I became an atheist.

My shift to Christianity is somewhat complex, of course, but I would say it started when I began taking philosophy courses as an undergraduate.  I began to realize that to speak about objective truth in any way is already to speak theologically--so why not include discussion about God in one's exploration of the truth?  I started taking scripture more seriously, and in reading it discovered a lot of wisdom--especially in Jesus (I wasn't yet very keen on Paul or the OT, though I certainly am now--I didn't understand them yet).

I ended up over-correcting a bit and transferring to a Christian college where the Calvinist/Evangelicals left me feeling alienated and confused.  They seemed very happy-clappy, but also incredibly judgmental.  I have also always distrusted emotionalism, and their worship was extremely focused on feelings.  I'm a very emotional person in many ways, but even then I believed in making decisions with my head--not because some folk rock music made me feel good.  I was also deeply uncomfortable with the common attitude around me that said that Christians need to hide from various ideas to "protect their faith."  What is the value of a faith that can't stand up to criticism?

Anyway, I tried attending an Anglican church for a while.  I liked the liturgical feel--it was much more amenable to my rational approach, while also not lacking in beauty.  But then some things happened...and to be honest, I basically had a vision that I won't detail now.

That got me into an Orthodox church for the first time, and soon after I picked up Alexander Schmemann's For the Life of the World along with Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Way.  My mind was basically blown--this was a truly ancient tradition that had real intellectual backbone.  This was the God I had started to encounter early in my university career, and a Christ who really is that God--not just his friendly teenage son.  This was the rational beauty I had just tasted a bit of in Anglican liturgy.  This was theological rigour without fire-and-brimstone condemnations of everyone else.

So...I became a visitor then a catechumen at a Greek church after a while.  I read a bunch more, and talked to lots of people--started praying, fasting, and the like--and things just kept making more and more sense.  So, eventually I was received.  That was almost ten years ago now.

That's the very short version--there's lots to say between, and I am currently in the early stages of writing a book about some of this (mainly the intellectual side of things especially in response to atheism--some of my thoughts on this are in the forum thread here called "proposed title what do you think?")  And, of course, there have been plenty of difficult times since becoming Orthodox.  There is a lot of ugliness and challenge in the Church.  We are all still humans in here--even more so, in fact (I always say that if the Church weren't full of sinful jerks, then I wouldn't be allowed in here--so I have to be patient with the other ones around me).

But, there is beauty and truth inside as well, unlike anything I've seen elsewhere.

So, welcome.  It's good that you're here.

Yours in Christ,

   -D.