How to Unite Indians? -- An inter-group discussion.

Dear Friends,

We Indians are the second largest community on chess.com but for some reason or the other we are divided into several different groups. Instead of having one strong group like many other countries we have several weak groups. Because of this, we fail to play to our true potential which is quite evident in international leagues such as the World League (WL) and the Asian League (AL). We have two teams, Team India (TI) and Indian Marauders (IM), representing India in the leagues. As TI has the best credentials, we hoped that TI will be chosen to represent India in the leagues from 2012 and that would solve the problem. But the AL league directors broke the rules they made a year ago and WL directors didn’t want to get their hands dirty so both teams are allowed to play again for 2012. Further debating with them is only putting us in bad light as they seem to wonder why we are unable to resolve the differences with our own countrymen. They agreed to allow just one team if we reached an agreement but as both teams feel that they are the official Indian team, the matter remains unresolved.

That brings us to the current discussion of how to form ONE official Indian team. There has been some discussion in TI and members came up with different ideas. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages as you can see from below.

Option #1 – Form an entirely new team with administration composed of admins from different Indian groups.

Advantages: Gives a full fledged official team for India that can immediately start playing the leagues from 2012. It puts an end to the confusion now and in future.

Disadvantages: For 2 - 3 years, TI and IM admins and some dedicated members put their efforts into building each team. They are already among the top teams on this site. Their efforts and team points will go in vain. New team starts from scratch and it will take another 2 years for it to get where the current teams are at present.

Option #2 – Form a new team only for the purposes of the international leagues.

Advantages: We can field a strong and united Indian team in the leagues from 2012. TI and IM can continue and keep their credentials.

Disadvantages: We are united only for the leagues but not for any other activity. There will be no true sense of united Indian team. Our differences remain forever and the unity is just superficial.

Option #3 – Choose one Indian team from IM and TI and make it official once and for all.

Advantages: We get a well established team so that we don’t lag 2 years behind.

Disadvantages: It is a slow process as it might take a year to start playing in the leagues as one team. Admins may not make the choice on the teams as they are obviously biased, so it is up to the members to do it (How? Explained below).

AL directors have already decided that they will allow the best performing Indian team from 2012 to continue from 2013. The other Indian team will be out of AL. I “think” we can also ask the WL directors to use AL performance for WL. If that works out, there will be only one team in the leagues from next year. So members can decide which team they want to see representing India and support it in the AL 2012.

Some members seem to be confused when they have to pick one team. There seems to be some misinformation or lack of awareness. If anyone wants to know more about a team, they must ask the admin to explain or point in the direction where he/she can learn more about the team. In TI there are 2-3 forum topics where one can learn the history of these two teams. If you don’t have such topics in IM ask the admins to post one. Listen to admins from both the teams, and then think for once if their arguments make sense or not. Add to that the teams’ performance when making the decision. If there is enough patience to read through the topics and think rationally, there will be no more confusion.

The other thing that needs to be addressed is the presence of too many Indian teams. Indian Warriors, Indian Chess Masters, Bharat etc have several hundred members. Is it necessary to have so many Indian teams? Does playing for each of these teams prevent Indians from concentrating their efforts on the united Indian team?.. are some of the questions that need to be answered. If TI and IM have to give up their credentials for the sake of unity, all the other teams would also need to do the same. So keep in mind that forming a united Indian team may not only affect TI and IM but all these groups as well.

With that introduction, let the discussion begin. Remember that a united Indian team is of primary importance, everything else is secondary.

nice to see a post here, but it would be nice if we get the views of IM, who have solely given his time and commitment to IM.

and I would also add a point whatever happens we should make a limit of matches for state teams(for team matches and vote chess like 5 -8 matches) because lots of time we both play outrated boards.

I strongly object the following paragraph by Vijayji !

The other thing that needs to be addressed is the presence of too many Indian teams. Indian Warriors, Indian Chess Masters, Bharat etc have several hundred members. Is it necessary to have so many Indian teams? Does playing for each of these teams prevent Indians from concentrating their efforts on the united Indian team?."

If the same rule had been applied for TI some years ago when thier no.of members were also few hundreds & the othe strong team IM was representing our country,they would not have reached at the status where they are today !

 Is it  logical to apply such criterias  depending upon the numericals once your own team has achieved the highest status ?

For informative purpose of members of this group:

India on chess.com

Analysis as per data as on 17/12/2011.

I hereby mention some Indian origin groups existed currently on chess.com with potential of do good for our country might sooner or later.

 

Analysis:

1.    All the groups listed above were represent our nation and fight for our nation.

2.    Top 8 groups from above list almost having more than 200 members and having potential of do good after spending some time.

3.    Last 8 groups are currently not so exhaustive but still their existence on chess.com which is not good for unity purpose. We can’t underestimate any group even if it has only 1 member, only because if effort put by admin or super-admin for growing it, nothing will be impossible. And again it will helpful for world’s nations to defeat us, as our main strength has been divided in number of groups.
 Average chess players will be very large in numbers but best chess players will always be very few, and we only have to take care for not dividing them in different groups. Among last 8 groups 5 groups were formed in 2011(i.e. new).

4.    We can assume sure possibility of developing new groups for India over the period of time, unless putting some restriction on their formation.

5.    At present India having 282825 members (6.49% of all members) on chess.com and their numbers increases day by day, so there is plenty of opportunity for growing any group, depends on sincere effort.

6.    In TM leaderboard “Team India” is on 15^th rank with 1569 matches, 37% win ratio with 36633 points.
“Indian Marauders” is on 33^rd rank with 1406 matches, 28% win ratio with 17670 points.
In VC leaderboard “Team India” is on 9^th rank with 214 matches, 76% win ratio with 756 points.
“Indian Marauders” is on 15^th rank with 120 matches, 71% win ratio with 459 points.

Looking after the scenario, it was seem that,
Any group not very far from one another in ranking, one can overtake other by putting extra effort, only because good players were divided in both groups, while few members were common in both groups.

After looking the progress of these groups, this competitive scenario is presently working well for top 2 Indian groups as well as other 6 other Indian groups. Many members were common in many groups while working for one goal (i.e. only for India).

If we do not restrict ourselves now, after spending some time both these groups were compete among ourselves, and fight for participation in WL or AL. Because as per WL or AL rules, who is doing well can eligible for participation in AL or WL.

Another thing, Leave the above scenario and ask ourselves:
Is what going on is better from country’s point of view?
Why we fight among ourselves while working for our common goal (i.e. India)?
Is this correct administration or leadership from India’s point of view?
If it is not possible now to unite ourselves, then when the time comes for uniting among ourselves?
Is it really working well in long term?

In, my opinion, if this scenario continues…
it is not working well in long term, we are fight among ourselves and others take benefits from it.

So, there is real need of thinking deeply on this subject now.

 

I also recommend that, there should be only one Country’s Team (for representing country) and only one State or Territory Team (for representing one state or territory).
And other teams must not include country name or state name respectively, for our better administration and better country’s prospects.

 

Hope, result will be good from India’s point.

Thanks to every Indian member.

How about merging Team India and Indian Mauraders into one group giving the name Jai Hind Ki Azad Dal or anyother of your choice reaching the Indian masses so that We as Indians can be a stronger team,its okay if we cannot get participation in The World League Tournament,the point is unity

[COMMENT DELETED]

Actually Vijay Phanidhar's paragraph did not end like this. It ended as:

"...prevent Indians from concentrating their efforts on the united Indian team?.. are some of the questions that need to be answered. If TI and IM have to give up their credentials for the sake of unity, all the other teams would also need to do the same. So keep in mind that forming a united Indian team may not only affect TI and IM but all these groups as well".

His point I think, was that there are several related issues for which there will be questions and they also need to be addressed. I think he wanted to emphasise that unification is not merely a question of IM and TI coming together - other groups too are in the picture. And I think it's a valid point.

Skandji, 

Vijayji has addressed the issue of existence of other groups  than TI & IM namely "Indian Warriors, Indian Chess Masters, Bharat  "as a separate paragraph & the criteria  he has used for this is the no.of members !

The appeal for unity is not the same as the questioning the existence of other groups apart from your own depending upon numerical !

He has raised this as one of the questions to be answered & my comment  is in response to that question !

The other things written after that ...

' If TI and IM have to give up their credentials for the sake of unity, all the other teams would also need to do the same. So keep in mind that forming a united Indian team may not only affect TI and IM but all these groups as well.'

is a totally different point related to credentials of "all" the groups which will be affected by the process deactivation of the groups & that is totally different  point worthy of a separate paragraph & consequent  discussions raised by it !

I have an idea in my mind, dont know whether it is bad or good. But it seems me that in this member can decide which group they want for themselves to represent India/Bharat. Our both big teams are playing in 2012 in both AL and WL hence it can be applied from next year.

We can have a League where all Indian team will play  each other with the rules applied in AL and WL; whichever team will win represent the India in AL & WL from 2013 for next two years(2013-2014). It can be for one year if people agree. In this way people can choose which group they want to represent, they will play for only one group and match minimum limit will be 20 players.

The other groups can continue as they do, then for 2015(or 2014 for one year) representation one among other team will challenge the 2012 winner. Match will be in 2014. The challenger will be chosen by Candidates tournament as in chess, but for that the challenger should be among top 50 in team leaderboard that time.

I hope till that time this problem will be fixed because it will be hard to continue for all these groups to continue in top 50 in leaderboard and the people will automaticaly chose the best group for their country representation.

This does not give an instant solution for unity, but in last the survivest will be unique.

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Many members believed that snatching the WL from TI before the given deadline was wrong and stuck with the team. You believed that Bharat is the right name for the country so made your own group. IM believed that because they opened 2 months before TI, they are the official group. Everybody believed in something and the end result is that we are divided. If you keep digging the past and repeat the same steps we took, there will be no change. Achieving unity requires change of attitude from everyone. Just because things happened a certain way in the past doesn’t mean that they have to happen the same way now.

Reminding the history while supporting the stand of your own group &forgetting the history owing to your own convenience when you want to criticize only the existence of  smaller groups is not the right attitude either ,for supporting the positive discussions !

It would be wrong to judge people, just by looking at their chess.com profile! But my opinion about the unification is that, it'd be impossible to unify the teams... Unless the SAs of all the major teams, bury the hatchet.. And starts respecting one another and the teams as a whole. And how would this be possible?? 'million dollar question' only if someone in either side of the groups... Initiates it personally. And only if there is goodwill between the sides.. Until then it is impossible.. (any other solution will not work out) cheers..:) -ashwath

We have initiated the discussion and have to spread it among other Indians, and solve the problem.

If we will not able to unite due to our egos and misunderstandings  then the others will decide how they want us in WL or AL because they will not take burden of our two groups forever in leagues; & at that time the misunderstandings and egos will increase among members and that will be shameful for us (for every Indian member) whether he is in right side or wrong.

100 % agree with Dermi,

as dermi has suggested a solution of IM and TI (which seems best to me) I have a solution for other Indian groups.

We can separate all groups with respect to their range.

I mean one group for <1300 Indian Players (Beginners), one groups for 1301 - 1450 , one for 1450 - 1600, one for 1601 - 1750, one for 1751 - 1900 and one higher rated players 1900 +. Total 6 Groups. and we have 6 groups which have >200 Players. So we can do it if all get agrees.

After IM AN INDIAN the next groups has 12 or less than 12 members So I think if they don't get consideration then they should not be object as to consider all groups is also not possible.

May this solution be not acceptable for some admins because all groups have players of all range.

But I request to all admins to think over it. Because this will not only solve the problem but also helps to all Indian players to get more and more better :

Advantage :

1) all other groups of India will get opportunity to represent their groups in their own unique way which respect the efforts of the Admins of all groups which they have serve till now.

 

2) All Indian players will get inspire to Improve them self and to jump to the next level group of India, which will give a great push to all players ( & of course our basic goal is nothing but to improve chess). so this advantage can't be neglected.

 

3) This will provide a best unity to India which will not allow other's to make any other Indian Groups Because they will not get any members as all Indian members will be familiar with this procedure and so will not support to other groups (Most probably).

 

Disadvantage :

1) The only disadvantage is how to rearrange all the groups :

Solution : We can post a forum and news in all groups to request the players that they have to join Indian group as per their rating range and allow them to do so in 1 week. After that the players which have not Quit /Join  the related group, Admins can do it.

And if it looks very tiresome work then allow me to be an admin of each group for a day I will do it for all one by one, and also will send messages to all those players to join respected group as per their range.

 

Before you give any idea on my suggestion please think about all the advantages and the difference between current position and the one which we get after this implementation.

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Why is a merger not possible we wont represent in the world league or make Bharat , Indian Warriors stronger in terms of membership

There are 29000+ members of India

for cheporob:

I mean that is not possible, they might have to change some programs/software to unite to calculate all data again; so why they will do it due to our stupidity.

and the other reason if they make such programs then how will they calculate the match between IM and TI, how they will distribute points. there might be some other problems technically.

A Technical merger is one in which the chess.com staff will automatically transfer members of both group into one new group.

this is impossible.

Other possible merger,is a manual merger,where the admin of a newly formed group will invite members from both the groups.

note: phrase 'new group' is used just for explanation.It can also be replaced by 'one of the two groups'  or any other group.

I wonder why chess.com has not officially created a country group and make all members from that country the member of that group and make it the official group for each country to represent in WL et al.. 

this discussion group and this forum have been started with a genuine goodwill towards uniting the players of our country to contribute for the greater cause above self and other prioritie.. my salutes to you all who have started it and all those who have spent their time in discussing it..

views from IM on these points will help steer the discussion further.. do we have any IM admins in this group already?

yes

ashwath and cheprobo, earlier chesoholic had joined but then he quit.