Ideas to prevent teaming in FFA

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Indipendenza

Just some postulates first.

To prevent blatant teaming, Solo (WTA) was invented as it became irrelevant to play for 2nd. Ok.

But yet (normally, i.e. outside of the teaming issue) being 1st shouldn't be given so much points; being 2nd should be given something substantial; being 4th shouldn't make you lose so many points that at some point some players aim at being 3rd at any cost, etc. But if you do all that, it pushes opposites to team up. Ok, we're blocked. We began to play with coefficients, hence two formats FFA and Solo, whereas it's just A PERVERSE EFFECT and shouldn't exist: ONE individual format should exist, regardless.

How to unblock the situation?

I believe that ONE format should exist (Individual, vs. Teams), with no Team techniques being applied nor applicable in Individual (or more precisely, such should be used from time to time in order to weaken ANY OF THE 3 OTHER PLAYERS with help of another one, not necessarily the opposite). And I think that playing with coefficients (the road we've followed for 1,5 years) is a wrong way. Some new ideas should be explored, discussed collectively and tested, and then maybe implemented. In order to eventually have one single format and a balanced game, with no "automatic" teaming in the 1st stage.

a) the most shocking/unpleasant teaming technique is of course the assisted checkmate with 2 queens. Why it works? Because it's very difficult to defend and in the same time try to develop and to prevent others from developing, etc. If you only defend, the opposite may be eliminated and you're 3rd anyway. Etc.

But it works simply because the one who checkmates is not sure his queen would be eaten. If he were sure it would, the strategy would become different as in most cases it wouldn't be worth.

- we can make compulsory eating an unprotected queen that has just checkmated (it's only about queens...),

- we can "punish" by -15 the player who doesn't eat such queen (believe me, afterwards everybody will... as the delta with the checkmating opposite would become 35 = 20+15),

- we can "punish" by removing half of the time still available (I don't like this idea and think it wouldn't work well, but I still list it as it could, like in any brainstorming, generate other ideas from someone else...),

- we can discount the 20 points given for the checkmate in the following manner: IF a checkmate is a double checkmate, the points given are not 20 but 10, and these are divided 5+5 between the concerned players (or even 3+3+3 if there are 3 players involved). In this case (that personally I prefer), only the "personal" checkmate would give full 20 points. Whereas coming to kill a player under check would not be always a good solution: all will depend on points, forces, material, position... Sometimes to eliminate a strong player would still be worth regardless of points given, if for instance we presume that the remaining player(s) is/are not strong enough to finish 1st afterwards.

b) another rather unfair and unpleasant thing is to see pieces put totally under the opposite player taking, as one is (almost) sure not to be eaten. It makes the game rather unfair as individual 4p chess is not supposed to be teams.

To prevent that, I also have some ideas.

- we could make compulsory eating an unprotected piece of someone else (but: it could have perverse effects, for example sometimes you see a mate in 3 or even a mate in 2, and it's mandatory to protect yourself, but you won't be able as you have to eat! we can even imagine a scenario where for instance blue on purpose puts his knight unprotected in order to oblige yellow to eat like in Antichess, because he helps thus green to checkmate... So it's probably a bad idea, but I still list it),

- we could "punish" by DEDUCTING the same number of points from the player who doesn't take an unprotected piece (regardless of the situation...), i.e. unless one is under check, you HAVE to eat or your are deducted 1, 3, 5, 9 pts (the highest, if there are many eatable pieces). Personally I like this idea, because it would make most of such circus irrelevant: no more queen put takeable by an opposite pawn, etc.

- even stronger, BOTH players could be deducted this amount... An interesting idea to explore.

- if someone puts his piece directly eatable by someone with no protection, he is directly deducted the value of this piece (either it is eaten afterwards or not) (I like this idea...).

Some other ideas to prevent most of the teaming and to make the game more enjoyable, along with giving the 2nd some points as he also deserves (which is difficult today as it encourages the teaming)?

ialejandrr

Solo algunos postulados primero.

Para evitar la formación de equipos descarados, se inventó Solo (WTA), ya que se volvió irrelevante jugar para el 2do. Okay.

Sin embargo, (normalmente, es decir, fuera del problema de la formación de equipos) ser el primero no debería recibir tantos puntos; ser segundo debe recibir algo sustancial; ser cuarto no debería hacerte perder tantos puntos que en algún momento algunos jugadores aspiran a ser terceros a cualquier costo, etc. Pero si haces todo eso, empujará a los opuestos a formar un equipo. Ok, estamos bloqueados. Comenzamos a jugar con coeficientes, por lo tanto, dos formatos FFA y Solo, mientras que es solo UN EFECTO PERVERSO y no debería existir: UN formato individual debería existir, independientemente.

¿Cómo desbloquear la situación?

Creo que debería existir UN formato (Individual, contra equipos), sin que se apliquen técnicas de Equipo ni aplicables en Individual (o más precisamente, tal debe usarse de vez en cuando para debilitar a CUALQUIERA DE LOS 3 OTROS JUGADORES con ayuda de otro, no necesariamente lo contrario). Y creo que jugar con coeficientes (el camino que hemos seguido durante 1,5 años) es un camino equivocado. Algunas nuevas ideas deben ser exploradas, discutidas colectivamente y probadas, y luego tal vez implementadas. Con el fin de tener un formato único y un juego equilibrado, sin equipo "automático" en la primera etapa.

a) la técnica de equipo más impactante / desagradable es, por supuesto, el jaque mate asistido con 2 reinas. Por que funciona Porque es muy difícil defender y al mismo tiempo tratar de desarrollarse y evitar que otros se desarrollen, etc. Si solo defiendes, lo contrario puede ser eliminado y eres el tercero de todos modos. Etc.

Pero funciona simplemente porque quien hace jaque mate no está seguro de que comerán a su reina. Si estuviera seguro de que lo haría, la estrategia sería diferente, ya que en la mayoría de los casos no valdría la pena.

- podemos hacer obligatorio comer una reina desprotegida que acaba de aparearse (solo se trata de reinas ...),

- podemos "castigar" con -15 al jugador que no se coma a esa reina (créanme, luego todos lo harán ... ya que el delta con el checkmating opuesto se convertiría en 35 = 20 + 15),

- podemos "castigar" eliminando la mitad del tiempo que todavía está disponible (no me gusta esta idea y creo que no funcionaría bien, pero todavía la enumero como podría, como en cualquier lluvia de ideas, generar otras ideas de alguien más...),

- podemos descontar los 20 puntos dados para el jaque mate de la siguiente manera: SI un jaque mate es un jaque mate doble, los puntos dados no son 20 sino 10, y estos se dividen 5 + 5 entre los jugadores en cuestión (o incluso 3 + 3 +3 si hay 3 jugadores involucrados). En este caso (que personalmente prefiero), solo el jaque mate "personal" daría 20 puntos completos. Mientras que venir a matar a un jugador bajo control no siempre sería una buena solución: todo dependerá de puntos, fuerzas, material, posición ... A veces, eliminar a un jugador fuerte aún valdría la pena independientemente de los puntos dados, si por ejemplo suponemos que los jugadores restantes no son lo suficientemente fuertes como para terminar primero después.

b) otra cosa bastante injusta y desagradable es ver las piezas puestas totalmente bajo la toma del jugador contrario, ya que uno (casi) está seguro de que no se come. Hace que el juego sea bastante injusto ya que el ajedrez individual 4p no se supone que sean equipos.

Para evitar eso, también tengo algunas ideas.

- podríamos hacer obligatorio comer una pieza desprotegida de otra persona (pero: podría tener efectos perversos, por ejemplo, a veces ves a un compañero en 3 o incluso a un compañero en 2, y es obligatorio protegerte, pero no estarás ¡capaz de comer! Incluso podemos imaginar un escenario en el que, por ejemplo, el azul pone a su caballero desprotegido para obligar al amarillo a comer como en Antichess, porque él ayuda al verde a jaquear ... Así que probablemente sea una mala idea , pero todavía lo enumero),

- podríamos "castigar" DEDUCIENDO el mismo número de puntos del jugador que no toma una pieza desprotegida (independientemente de la situación ...), es decir, a menos que uno esté bajo control, TIENE que comer o se le deduce 1 , 3, 5, 9 pts (el más alto, si hay muchas piezas comestibles). Personalmente, me gusta esta idea, porque haría que la mayoría de ese circo sea irrelevante: no más reina puesta por un peón opuesto, etc.

- aún más fuerte, AMBOS jugadores podrían deducirse esta cantidad ... Una idea interesante para explorar.

- si alguien pone su pieza directamente comestible por alguien sin protección, se le deduce directamente el valor de esta pieza (se come después o no) (me gusta esta idea ...).

¿Alguna otra idea para evitar la mayor parte del trabajo en equipo y hacer que el juego sea más agradable, junto con darle al segundo algunos puntos como él también merece (lo cual es difícil hoy ya que fomenta el trabajo en equipo)?

I-I_I-I

Some solutions sound quite unnatural to me. Making sth compulsory in non-anti games , imo, is seldom good. 

Meanwhile there already exists plenty of ways to prevent teaming, like Ox, Takeover, Play4Mate, 3ptK, etc. The easiest way to stop opposite teaming is to apply sth like Ox6 (altho it may not be good).

Try one of these urself. If u wish u can even hold a tournament to test out these options.

Indipendenza

What is Ox6? I'm unfamiliar of this one. The other ones, Ok.

 

I understand that probably/maybe some solutions do exist already in variants. But my point is that if we do not implement some changes as GENERAL RULE and make a clear distinction Individual/Teams for standard games, the hobby will not expand (and there are currently much less games than before...). Typically, like some players already said here on the forum quite recently, I am sure that many left 4p chess 6-18 months ago with the development of teaming in FFA (and for some reasons most haven't migrated to Solo so far, maybe because to win just in 25% of cases is frustrating and sometimes you're second just by chance and feel that it's unfair and you should've been given something like in FFA).

 

 

 

I-I_I-I

Ox6 means when all players are present, u gain 6x pts for opposite pieces. (for instance, 120 pt checkmate. It's formerly known as OppX, and there are Ox2,3,4 as well)

I know that teaming is super confusing for newcomers, ofc. But new options are only theoretically analyzed and haven't been tested enough. Holding tournaments and asking for feedback is very helpful imo

Indipendenza

Yes, it has to be tested, indeed. It's a interesting idea also: to compensate for the natural ab initio teaming (intrinsic to the board configuration) by making it advantageous to attack in front.

The problem necessarily will be to find (an impossible) balance in terms of the good coefficient. "Impossible", because it will depend a lot on times and players' modes. Typically we shall find for example empirically that the game becomes fully balanced with Ox 3,1415926. And then the players' tactics will evolve for some reason and it won't be balanced anymore. Etc.

But I shall definitely try.

Could we agree with a group of players who are interested in such experiments that for example we all come around 14:00UTC every Wednesday and Sunday? Because what I see, it's very difficult otherwise to find suitable games. Ex.: I couldn't play a Solo Bullet for a while and I'm not in the leaderboard anymore, simply because there's never such games and when I create one, nobody or just 1 person joins.

I-I_I-I

@spacebar has implemented auto-tournaments on the test server and we shall see it in the next update. Since then we can run regular test tournaments wink.png If anyone wanna help testing they can just take part in it easily

Indipendenza

Spacebar is fantastic!

hest1805

I'll be glad to join an experimenting group! And I can help setting up arenas for test variants happy.png