It’s not “creation vs evolution”

When I was homeschooled, my curriculum assigned me a couple books explaining arguments against evolution. My parents are very open to various old earth theories (which I didn’t really realize at the time), so on the side my mother made me read a series of letters that were a response to one of those books. However, this curriculum still brainwashed me into thinking that you had to reject evolution to be a good Christian. Because of this, I felt very uncomfortable in museums for the longest time, assuming that as a Christian I had to disagree with the ages of various things.

I didn’t really question this assumption until 6 or 7 months ago, when I began to realize just how many amazing Christians hold to old earth views or even evolution. A while back, my father introduced me to Gavin Ortlund, a Nashville-based Baptist pastor (he’s been called a liberal and a heretic for his regional flood views: how terrible is that?), who is something of an evolutionist. I had been watching Christian YouTube channels for a few months, but I gradually realized that many of them (typically the more academic ones) also hold to old earth views. I began to realize the unlikely harmony between evolution and the Bible. I also began to read more Tolkien and Lewis, two great Christian thinkers who were also open to evolutionary views.

Now, it pains me to look back on myself and realize how my homeschool curriculum had taught me the same thing that many atheists believe: that nobody could see the Bible and evolution as fitting together. Having been presented with this false dichotomy, atheists choose evolution, rejecting the religion that is the foundation for Western culture, and fundamentalist Christians choose the Bible, rejecting the modern scientific advances that numerous Christians worked towards. You see, I didn’t realize how plausible theistic evolution actually is.

I hope my testimony on this has been helpful and thought-provoking for y’all. Obviously this issue is secondary to the gospel itself (it’s a so-called tertiary issue, which means that it’s important but less so than, say, baptism). The main reason I care about this issue is to raise awareness about theistic evolution, which many Christians automatically reject as ridiculous. Because if I had entered a college biology class with this same assumption I keep talking about, and if I had started to see how plausible evolution actually is (and how there is plenty of evidence that I thought didn’t exist), then I may have been seriously tempted to leave Christianity. But since I have changed my mind on this issue, my faith is much stronger. I no longer have to care if that dinosaur skeleton really is 80 million years old: it doesn’t make the Bible any less true!

 Thanks for listening!

i disagree with your conclusion that the theory of evolution is compatible with the Bible. first, there is the obvious 6-day creation story. second, the bible says there was no death or decay before the Fall, and if the earth had already been inhabited millions of years before that there would have been a LOT of death and decay. also, some of the fossils which are supposedly millions of years old, show signs of disease and deformation, which could not be since the world was perfect up until the Fall. third, all plant life was created on the third day of creation and the sun, moon, and all other heavenly objects weren't made until the fourth, so even if you say that "day" is figurative stretch out the "days" until there millions of years, that would mean that plant life had evolved over millions of years WITHOUT sunlight.

i apologize if i sound snarky or otherwise impolite, but i prefer to be on point when i debate and not to try to flower things up if i disagree with someone. but i do agree that though a pretty big deal, it is not mandatory to salvation.

I wonder how many consider the time gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2? This gap could be billions of years and explains the universe could be very old. It also could explain a pre-Adamic race that was destroyed with the dinosaurs before Adam was formed from the dust. BTW when I asked the question about Abraham believing God his faith was counted for righteousness according to Roman’s 4:1-5. Those that believe also partake of Christ’s righteousness as a gift of God. Christ paid it all by the cross and we that believe in his resurrection are his own by faith as well.

First of all, standard writing conventions in the ancient near east were less concerned with scientific precision than making a point through whatever language they thought necessary. This is not to say that there is no sense in which the creation account is historically true: I merely think that it was massively simplified for its intended audience (and indirectly for us) to make a much more profound point.

Second, it is a leap in logic to assume that the word translated “good” (which, like our English translation, can have a variety of meanings) means perfect. There is reason to believe it meant “pleasant,” hence why God takes a day to rest and enjoy it. There is also a very reasonable theory that Satan’s fall tarnished the natural world.

Third, Genesis 1 (like the entire Bible) is written from the perspective of a human on earth (while still being inspired by God of course). Interestingly enough, the thick steamy atmosphere gradually cleared after plants began to form, according to evolutionary theory, thus revealing the heavenly bodies to earth.

before i continue this debate any further, i would like to know exactly what i am arguing against (your view of the creation, how life came about, where man fits in, what changed in the Fall, ect.)

I’m not particularly interested in a long debate here: I just wanted to express how I feel liberated and strengthened in my faith by leaning towards an evolutionary view, and I hope that others will benefit from this post and consider theistic evolution more carefully rather than blowing it off as “playing fast and loose” with the Bible.

I think the Big Bang was probably a real event, and that God caused life to form and gradually evolve into the massive biodiversity that we have today. I think that Satan’s fall directly impacted nature, but that God works through death and suffering for good (like He always does). I think that at some point God breathed a soul (God’s image) into the first human (Adam), and Adam lived a great working life in God’s presence until he sinned and was banished from Eden and the Tree of Life.

I could absolutely be wrong on a lot of things but I think that these things fit with the Bible and the best scientific evidence we have.

I would like to comment on something you said. As far as I know, nothing in the physical creation was changed by the fall of Satan, it wasn't until the Fall of Adam that the world was cursed. If you are going off of a verse I am forgetting, I would appreciate hearing it.

This idea (Angelic Fall Theodicy) is based on traditional angelology, which sees a greater connection between the spiritual and the physical that is often overlooked in the modern world. I’d recommend looking into it!

we have already had the conversation in another club on this topic, so you already know my belief. i believe in a young earth, perhaps not as young as many estimates put it (e.g., not 6,500 yrs old) but certainly not as old as the belief that God used evolution dates the earth. however, i think that, although it is good to know the truth on this matter, it doesn't affect one way or the other trueness of out faith (that is, whether someone is saved or not), since it is not part of the foundation of our theology.

Yeah I agree that it’s important but not really that important. However, it can shatter your faith if you grow up in a bubble of young earth creationism and you think that’s the Christian view, and then you take some high school or college biology classes and discover that there is a lot of evidence for evolution that you thought didn’t exist. For instance, I learned that we only have very little bones of the Lucy fossil, and that the dating methods make many assumptions. Something I should have realized but know now is that of course scientists have recognized and dealt with these issues, by making very educated guesses on the rest of Lucy and dealing with the assumptions in relation to carbon dating.

you know, i realized this partially on my own and it was a big part of my thesis, also available in this club (dogmatic-doctrine) where i can simplify the unity between evolution and religious origins as simply as ,

if you were God how would you create the universe, well first of all you'd need the word but also space time and matter and the truth is that for religious people who don't believe in science, i usually end up asking them how trained archaeologists find fossils of hominids, and also that the precision of the universe is an astounding topic so mind boggling that atheists have to agree that the universe was created, but for this paragraph not to bee too lengthy, ill let that be to whoever is interested in reading my thesis, now even if you are a 'dead person' you must agree that the prehistoric humans were far different from us, as they hadnt had any shelter so they must have had fur, and different teeth to adapt to their diet, which is natural selection in its simplest, so at the end of the day, the answer i understood was that God created science and math (another concept in my thesis -dogmatic doctrine) to manipulate the universe as these things are embedded in the fabric of the universe, or so -they were discovered not invented, but in conclusion science can never be an impediment to the truth or to God as they are the same thing

also i can leave a forum on what thesis i am writing now if anyone is interested in what perturbs my mind now

the bigger picture is that we get a much better picture of the origin of everything if we join both theories, the theory of evolution doesnt tell us where exactly where life itself came from but we find this answer in the next where evolution does come as the change of past mankind to modern mankind as explained before.

oh and the earth is currently estimated to be approximately 4.5 billion years old

Hmm, why are out statements in the same bubble? That's confusing, I must have done it wrong

You will have to find where your statement end and mine begins

agreed. it was in the 3rd-4th generations that they made cities, so it wouldn't be too much to suppose that they were able to make some sort of house.