Living in a Fractal

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pawn_slayer666

 

I've been wondering for a while, what if space were shaped like a fractal?  The evidence we have at the moment says that space is shaped like a sphere, so everything's even, but how different would living in a fractal be?  I looked at these two videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGLPbSMxSUM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwAS5omW_w

 

And they talk about the space that is "not a knot", and the way light bends to create strange patterns in a space without a certain locus of points.  So is there any way to apply this to, say, a point living in the whitespace of the Sierpinski triangle?  Is there any way to distort a 2-D infinite space to fit inside only the whitespace of the triangle?

 

Alternatively, is there a function f(x,y) with domain real values of x and y, such that the range is a mapping onto and into the whitespace of the Sierpinski triangle?

 

Or, a simpler question -- picture a 3-D sierpinski triangle, the whitespace of it.  It's a bunch of tetrahedrons.  Imagine if each tetrahedron was a planet, with sufficient gravity to hold mass onto it, despite lacking mass.  The center of each tetrahedron has a heat sorce to sustain life.  They're all connected, so it's easy to move between planets, but the direction of gravity gets confusing.  Also, planets get smaller as you go farther out.

In other words, the blue one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sierpinski_pyramid.png

 How would technology evolve on this kind of world, specifically regarding the unique structure?  Purely theoretical.  I'm just looking for ideas on writing something regarding life on/in a fractal.  Dazzle me with imagination!

Elroch

I think although space appears to be Euclidean at small scales, has hyperbolic geometry when you take time into account as well, may be roughly speaking a 3 sphere (plus time) when you look at the whole universe, we may be able to show it is not fractal. It all comes down to making measurements. You basically determine the geometry by making measurements. A great example is making measurements on the Earth's surface and finding they are inconsistent with the Earth being flat. If you were on a hyperbolic plane rather than on a sphere, in the small scale it would look the same as a plane or a sphere, but as you made larger scale measurements the discrepancies would tell you what the geometry was.

You can do a similar thing with fractals. For instance, suppose you wanted to find out the dimension of the coast of Britain. You might believe it was 1-dimensional, but someone else says "No - it is fractal! You can check like this. First you make a very crude measurement of the perimeter length, using steps of 1 mile between points on the coast. Then you repeat with points half a mile apart. Then again with points a quarter of a mile apart (good Imperial units - after all, we invented them). In each case, you form the sum of the distances between adjacent points. If the coast is 1-dimensional, the lengths converge to some length as the points get nearer to each other. If they do not, then various things may happen. One thing is that each time you halve the distance between the points, the total length goes up by a similar multiple (say k). In this case, the fractal dimension is log(k)/log(2) [The 2 is because we halved the distance between the points each time].

The same thing would happen if space was fractal. Except here, it would affect all the physical laws. I wave my hands here due to my own incomplete knowledge, but I am pretty sure this is true. For example, you might expect the speed of light to vary depending on the scale! Gamma rays would have to go further along the jagged space-time than a radio wave (which only "sees" space at a very crude resolution of length), because they are more localised (higher energy ~= higher frequency ~= smaller length scale).

By co-incidence, I was very interested to find something closely related in the surprising area of financial markets recently, with a connection to thermodynamics (specifically entropy) as well. The question of interest was how random markets are.People who believe in a theory called the Efficient Market Hypothesis or EMH (specifically the strong version of this) believe that the movements of a market are indistinguishable from random movements. A corollary of this hypothesis is that you cannot make money by trading except with inside information or blind luck. Other people try to prove them wrong, usually by ignoring what they say and making lots of money despite them. I read a study where someone tried to show this result in a less lucrative way. What they did was look at the sequences of prices that occur and show statistically that they are not random. 

Each ratio of price from one day to the next is a number (usually not too far from 1). The sequence of ratios on N consecutive days can be viewed as a point in an N-dimensional space. One study looked at such sequences for 15 consecutive days in the American stock market. The EMH would suggest these points would form an amorphous blob in 15 dimensional space, clustered around the point (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1)  [Or (0,0,...0) if you take logs].

Now here's the interesting bit. You can measure the dimension of this blob of data in the same way as you can for the coast of Britain. What you do is you try to cover the whole set of points with sets of 15 dimensional hypercubes of different sizes. Now if the vectors were truly random, each time you halved the size of the cubes (i.e. their edge length), you would need about 2^15 times as many hypercubes to cover them all. But when they tried this, they found they only needed 2^4 times as many. (actually I assume they reduced the size of the cubes less than this, or they wouldn't have had enough data, but anyhow the exponent was indeed 4).

What this means is that the sequences of prices are near a 4-dimensional hypersurface in the 15-dimensional space of all possible sequences. Which means that it is not entirely random, but there is some connection between the movements that occur over a period of a few weeks, as one might expect.

pawn_slayer666

I do indeed recall the coast of Britain problem in a book I read, and I see how changing physical laws based on distance would work, but this also only works for simply connected surfaces. (I know thats the wrong terminology, but I'm implying the locus of all points inside a border, be it fractal or not)  The Inverse Sierpinski Triangle, on the other hand, is composed of a series of triangles with many infinitely small gaps between them, and the triangles themselves also become infinitely small.

 

Each individual triangle can serve as a universe in itself, but there are an infinity of singularities around the border of each triangle, linking it to other smaller triangles i.e. parallel universes.

--

I don't quite follow the EMH refutation, is it simply saying that if stock market prices were truly random, the fractal dimension of the number of hypercubes needed would be 15, when in reality it was 4 (and so the stock market price dimension is not 1, but log(4)/log(15)?

Elroch

I need to clarify the last point. You start with some empirical data which comprises a sequence of 15 ratios of the closing prices of the market on successive days (i.e. first component is today's close divided by yesterday's close, second element is yesterday's close divided by the previous day's close, and so on ...). If the movement was random, you'd expect these 15 dimensional vectors to be scattered in all directions, so the dimension of the set of vectors would be 15. For example if the direction of the market on each day was decided by the toss of a coin, these 15-dimensional directions would be pointing all over the place. But in fact the directions are clustered near a rather small subset of all possible directions. This subset is approximately 4-dimensional.

Here's another analogy. Suppose your data set was the 3-dimensional location of every person in America as (x, y, z). These are 3-dimensional vectors which are easy to picture as they are spatial. We might have a theory that people are randomly distributed in 3 dimensions (3D). But if we applied the process of seeing how many cubes of different sizes you need to cover all of the locations of people, you'd find the number grew at roughly a 2nd power rather than a 3rd power. This is because almost all people are located very near to a 2D subspace of the 3D space of all locations (the ground). This empirical fact could be used to derive a theory that people tend to be located near ground level due to some law we don't know about (actually perhaps it's fair to say it's caused by gravity).

Note that in this example, there is no function that gives you y and z if you know x. This is because the space of locations of people is roughly 2D, not 1D. However if you know 2 dimensions (and one of them is not z), you can take a pretty good guess at the 3rd. It is similar in the market. If the space made up of two ratios of closes was 1D, it would be possible to predict prices accurately given 2 daily closes.  If the space of 15 ratios of closes is 4D, 4 numbers based on past data might be enough to predict today's close. In fact it is a stochastic relationship, so there is always uncertainty in the prediction (rather a lot). But the structure appears to be enough to do significantly better than blind luck.

Regarding Sierpinski triangles, the white 2-dimensional parts are all removed. There are no 2-dimensional parts left (because its dimension is lower than 2).  There are lines left but every area, however small, has holes punched in it. I think the set you get by punching holes is the same as the set you get if you start with a wireframe triangle and keep adding smaller wireframe triangles to the middles of triangles in the (obvious?) way. Am I right?

 

[One thing I think is true about the Sierpinksi triangle is that points in it are not all equivalent (by contrast with all points on a line or all points on a sphere). Maybe the symmetry group is only of order 6? To put it mathematically, the (topological) symmetries of the Sierpinksi triangle are not transitive (they don't send every point to every other point).  I could be wrong here - needs checking. Anyhow, if true this would mean that the laws of physics would probably depend on location.]

Elroch

Oh, about the videos. This material is extremely advanced. I was in my finals year of maths when Thurston (mentioned at the end, and listed in the credits) got his Fields medal for revolutionising 3D topology. I did a graduate course in knots and 3-manifolds in 1983, following on from undergraduate topology courses, and I can still only partially get my head round it! Which confirms I am a lot less smart than Bill Thurston, but also that the concepts are unusually tough. But it's a great video, and will surely make a little more sense on the second viewing.Smile

pawn_slayer666

The 2D globe analogy helps, thanks!

You say that the Sierpinski points are not all equivalent... can you elaborate on what it means for points to be "equivalent"?  Given what I know, I'd think all points were congruent (or do eqivalent and congruent have different meanings?) (and what is symmetry of order 6?)...

 

Mixing fractals and topology is very far outside my scope of thinking -- I still barely know anything about either.  After looking at the videos 5 times so far, I can finally understand the concept of space without a point.  Space without baromean rings though....  But it's a nessessary challenge to take if I'm to write a story about points living inside a fractal ;)

Elroch

If you can understand any of it now, it should get a lot clearer after studying a couple of relevant courses!

The definition of points being "equivalent" depends on exactly what you are interested in about the object. If distances matter, there are definitely only 6 symmetries, so there an infinite number of equivalence classes of points (eg the 3 corners, and the 6 points any chosen distance from a corner along a side).

But if you are only interested in the topology, distances don't matter. In this case,  I believe the points are still not all equivalent. (i.e. there is not always a continuous bijection that sends one chosen point to another chosen point) . It seems likely that points on an edge with terminating binary expression are different to those which do not. At a binary point, at some time in the construction the part of the space near the point gets divided into two parts connected by the point. At say 1/3 of the way along a side, this never happens, so the space may look rather different from here after the construction has been completed. This needs proving though.

Elroch

If you haven't already watched it, Benoit Mandelbrot's TedTalks presentation is essential viewing. As you know, he practically invented the subject.

pawn_slayer666

Just watched it, it was informative on the whereabouts of the origin of the Mandelbrot Set and dimension numbers, and I'll probably later try to write a program that draws the Mandelbrot Set.

Elroch

Cool! It's a fascinating object, unimagined before Mandelbrot discovered it. And such a simple definition.

[EDIT - correction, it seems that the set was first defined and the first crude pictures produced 2 years before Mandelbrot started to study it. As well as others, you might be interested in the popular culture section of the Wikipedia article. ]

Chemist1995

Elubas and company, we the universe through our consciousness we influence this faster then even light. the word is non local casuality. everything in this participatory universe has consciousness. look past measurments brother, the most intricute things in our universe we cant measure, they exist through deep conscious layers. our vibration manifest themselvs in many ways rather then just our commenly seen reality. there is far more, it all rests on dissipating ego and self centerdness wich clouds our cognitions and consequently our reality and what is projected upon it.  faith and spirituality really convey love well, but the scale of faith and consequently love depend on the lover ( the observer)

Elroch

hmm, not sure about that.

We are made of electrons and nuclei, interacting internally and externally mainly through the electromagnetic force, which is limited by the speed of light.

There may be quantum entanglement with other objects at a distance, which can cause the so-called "spooky action at a distance" but without sending information.

We are physical beings and have no evidence or need for anything more, in my opinion.

Chemist1995

but through perception we decern through our mind what information we see. see if you are paranoid or are fearful then we will percive just that and in turn everything we project on our surroundings is a reflection of just that, paronoia. if you look at the universe in a mechanistic way like that, I truly belive all your ideas you pick up are related to just that. but what can tune us into a higher consciousness and higher understanding, love. strangly enough when you dissipate your ego your self centered thoughts leave and you are left with a unity and contentedness. think of the universe as a large string if you will. ever createing what our mind's consciousness measures. and of course measures through senses. but it measures only a reflection of the person. the string is a super string with every idea and sensation attached  since human imagination is infinite . thus infinite outcomes and futures. people with infinite love and compassion and wisdom are what we revear, jesus, buddah, christena, etc. what we truly want is unity through eachother and of course ourselves. and in this world we are so seperated because most of us dwell on our self centered thoughts. while we grow up through these institutions to perform a mechanical funtion that usaually display no intamacy to your enviriment. what would be better is teach these things. foundations we all know, love and compassion and persuit to truth. with these foundations people will never fail. your right we are physcal being, but at the same time we operate on the same system as every other thing in the universe; consciousness. and all the consciousness are all interlocked and in constant influence with eachother. every physcal thing has a spiritual value attached. seeing things differently revolves around new eyes not scenery. im glad i can talk to people on hear interactivly. its good to share my ideas with you good brothers and sisters.