Move 16 - Candidate Discussion

Yeah, Noodlehead - after 21...Bxf2+ 22.Kh1 Bxe1 23.Qxe1 we have a rook and pawn for a pair of bishops. The pair of bishops is usually better than the rook and pawn, and in this instance the position is very open - they must be much better, so I'd evaluate that position as nearly lost if not lost already for us.

ivan_the_truble,

I have made a separate post just on that - "Creating Chess Diagram" in this forum - please see.

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I don't think that the position after Qa5 Bxf2+ Kf1 Bxe1 Qxe1 gives a strong advantage to white, despite the two bishops, we have plenty of pressure already built up against their undeveloped queenside.  I'd say that's fair compensation.  dsarkar, the knight isn't "hanging" it's being offered along with our bishop in exchange for a pawn and a rook.

I can only poke my nose in here for a few minutes, but am responding to a request from val08 to repost the basic variations for Qd8 from earlier discussion. Unfortunately, the topic it was posted in is locked, which is a pain (I can't edit and copy the diagram, so have to recreate)

Modified final position in suggested 16...Bxd5 line

Elroch,

You can copy a diagram from a locked topic by pressing the PGN button, and copying the PGN text to a new diagram (instead of FEN, you select PGN)

[Later post supercedes the second paragraph]

I spotted the same idea against the pawn sacrifice Qxb6 Bc5 line and also thought it looked unplayable for us. It is great to be looking at such things as the pawn sac, but we can't rely on it in this case.

My personal view is that the BxN exchange is not our best option, based on the fact that this resource does not work, and that if we do not sac the pawn, I have found an advantage for white against each line dsarkar has given. The simple fact is that Bxd5 leaves the d-pawn backward, and leaves us with a sole bad bishop (and a not very active knight) against white's two bishops. In dsarkar's latest lines, 20. c3 is actually the best move for white, not a sideline, and white retains a signficant advantage, with no weaknesses, a bind on d5. We have a bad bishop, a permanent weakness, and no weaknesses to attack.

Bxd5

My version of the 16...Qd8 line (minus weak white moves):

I have read in the main discussion that D3V1L feels 17. ... Bg5 is the antidote to dsarkar's white play after 16. ... Qd8, and I have found alternative improvement with 20. ... Rc6, which seems much better than dsarkar's suggested 20. ...  Nc5. I understand it is difficult to pay good service to a move you believe inferior!

Let's make sure the two diagrams that dsarkar has posted get attention here too, not just in the open forum. 

The diagrams are what teammates look at, so if we can credibly review and analyze the moves in them, and present the final variations in those in the next 5-6 hours to the broader team (that's how much time we have before 50% of the voters will have voted), it will be a useful contribution.

I need to tell you, however, that B:d5 is currently leading by a very large margin in the voting process, and roughly 20% of the people have already voted, so we'd better have a suggestion sooner rather than later. 

Note: I voted early today, not in defiance of our agreed upon principles, but to be able to closely monitor the progression of votes, and track it, so we can refine the process.

D3V1L - If white plays Qxc6, could we respond with bxc6?  This closes our c-file (though the b-file is then open), but it gives us a pawn with which to support a d5 advance.

savyma's comment on the 16. ... Qd8 17. b3 line leads to a very interesting improvement, delaying g6 for one move. White can either exchange bishops and solve our d5 problem, or not and suffer f5 with tempo:

Looking at dsarkar's final lines for 16...Qd8 I would not hesitate a moment to play the white side, if I were given a choice.  I think that our position just looks too cramped.  Keeping more pieces to try to create more chances for counterplay only works if our pieces don't keep restricting eachother.

MY choice for move 16 is Qd8.

even with the improvements in the Qd8 line, our position looks very cramped as mentioned by noodlehead710. It would seem that Bxd5 line offers us far more counterplay.

Without a lot of "firm" analysis, it appears to me that we are better if we can keep our light-squared bishop on the board.  As a result, though we might be cramped for a minute if we play Qd8, Nb6 will more or less solve that problem (by forcing off the white knight at some point), and white can't play a5 right away anyway without losing a pawn.

As a result, I think Qd8 is best here.  I should note, however, that we really need to vote very soon as a group or there will be little point as the Bxd5 votes are already taking over in the forum.

As a note, though it is early, I have opened the unofficial voting topic.  We need to vote now or risk being irrelevant.