Move 17 - FINAL Variations

Hopefully this won't confuse people. This topic is for complete analysis only. Any minor change/comments/suggestions should be posted in the other topic. We want diagrams for all voters to quickly look at here in this topic. 

Okay, so I took a quick look through everything and it seems we are still having some doubts over where each move leads. The main question for the queen moves is whether white will trade queens or not. The trading variations look slightly better for white in my opinion and I also think trading queens is in white's favor since we have a permanent backward pawn that is not going anywhere anytime soon.  Anyways, just to be safe, I will post all the lines I considered best for each move by our members. The original posters are recommended to repost these diagrams if they want. If there are any improvements/updates, please repost the diagrams or tell me in the other topic and I will update them here.

 17...Qc6 18. Qxc6 - Elroch's variation

 17...Qc6 18. Qxc6 - casmith_789's variation

 17... Qc6 18. Qd3/Qd1 - urvang's variation

17... Nb6 18. Qb3 - dsarkar's variation + D3V1L's d5 sac (a bit dubious atm)

Requesting our players who have been following the analysis to double check to see if we missed any major ideas here.

Update list:

-Extended the d5 sac line a bit with the variation Estragon posted in the main discussion.

I will be sleeping for the next 7 hours plus/minus 1 hour. If there are any updates, please repost the diagram with the update. Thanks.

Use this for pgn:

[Event "Pogonina vs. Chess.com"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2009.12.23"]
[White "Pogonina"]
[Black "Chess.com"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo "2200"]
[FEN "2r2rk1/1pq1bppp/p2p4/3bp3/P1n1P3/5B2/1PP2PPP/R1BQR1K1 w - - 1 17"]
[TimeControl "1 in 1 day"]

--And add your line here--

Umm... I have no doubt where they lead. They fail:

Elroch, white won't trade queens. Look at my diagrams above.

Seems OK so far. Then again, it won't be me picking it apart, but a WGM. Anyway, we need to be wary of a kingside attack, and this is a good start.

I'm a bit fried with all the moves, white's and my own, so i doubt i'll be of any more help for a bit.

I am confused...  Elroch simultaneously stated (5 posts above this one) that after 17...Qc6 white will not be inclined to take (18.Q:c6) and at the same time stated a preference for another move for us (17...Nb6).  Well, if she doesn't take, but retreats her queen, then we have chased her queen away from d5 and won a tempo to consolidate our defenses, from what I can see.  That can't be bad.

No logical contradiction, _valentin_ . I think white would respond to 17. ... Qc6 with 18. Qd3 and was expressing the view that I wasn't that positive about our prospects and was hoping 17. ... Nb6 was better. But my view was not at all final.

I am going to post a comment discouraging people from voting, due to the uncertainty about what move to play.

I see, Elroch -- thanks for helping to resolve my confusion.

I already posted such a comment 2 minutes before the voting started, but if you feel you need to, please reinforce what I said.

Estragon:  My sense is that we do not have a decision of what result we're playing for, and I'm not sure we need one now.  (I personally am playing for the fun and learning, not the result per se.)

We're playing our best game, and whatever result comes out will come out.  It's hard to ask for more that playing our best, but the result will depend at least in part on her contribution to the game as well: perhaps a draw, perhaps not; we're not in a position to tell which one, just yet.

I agree with _valentin_'s simple logic about 17. ... Qc6 18. Qd3. The question is whether the truth of the position confirms the general principle.

A related argument is that if white prefers to retreat to b3 after Nb6, and if our next move there may well be Qc6, then Qc6 Qd3 has managed to send white's queen to an inferior square by using the knight to block her path.

So if indeed Qc6 Qxc6 is acceptable for us, then Qc6 has good general arguments for it.

Are we disillusioned enough with non-gambit lines after 17. ... Nb6 to reject them entirely now?

well, my name was used, but my important comments were left out of the diagram.

Nobody seems to cover this variation anymore, so I am putting it here. It is NOT a final one, but an important one to consider when considering Qc6 (given in the comments of the diagram I last posted):

I'm looking at the d5 sac, and white playing Kg1 looks better for white than Kf1.

So can we rule out Qc6 because of the Maroczy bind?

We need to play better than the average player.

Dsarkar, in your diagram, how about 19. ... Na5 to avoid the Maroczy bind? If 20. Bd2, then we respond with Bd8.

I'm undecided because I am not sure how final the analysis is, but if some of our strongest players feel pretty sure, I suggest we take a vote and try to get Qc6 played ... I mean get whatever move wins the vote played.