Possible Pardon Scenario?

With the swearing in of President-Elect Obama coming next Tuesday, I thought I would ask a couple of questions:

First, do people here think President Bush, Vice President Cheney, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and/or possibly others in the Bush Administration may be charged with violation of US and/or international laws for possible crimes, including possible violation of privacy laws with warrantless wiretaps, treatment (including possible torture) of alleged terrorists while under US control, or any other reason?

Second, I have wondered if, in order to try to avoid possible prosecution under at least US laws relating to the above, if President Bush, very soon close to leaving office, may issue pardons for anybody who is thought to be at possible risk of prosecution.  Then, he resigns so Vice President Cheney can become president for at least a few hours before Obama becomes president, and then he, in turn, pardons Bush?

As for me, I do beleive there have been violations of both US and international laws, of which Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Rumsfeld and others may be prosecuted.

If the pardon scenario above was to take place, I guess that would immunize whomever was pardoned from prosecution under US laws, but I think they still may be prosecuted under international law.

Does anybody else think this pardoning and resigning scenario may happen?  I don't know, of course; but I have been wondering if it may happen.

Any other thoughts on this?

In our group, I think we need to keep any discussion we have limited to legal issues and opinions.  I also posted this topic in the Open Discussion group forum.  There, I think it is ok to also discuss this from the political perspective.

Thanks,

George

Great topic. 1st {?}, Do i think the Bush Admin. had fashions in braking international laws? {A} YES! Everyone knows Bush and his office claimed mountains from the top down instead of up. A few days ago Bush gave his last speak talk on t.v., and in within his statements he said, " He did not care about the VOICES of the land. He felt that had to do what he felt was right".

2nd {?}, Do I think that Bush will be faced with that which he swore to uphold?

{A} No. Maybe some office lingo or an eyebrow raised. Other than that nothing to be said. Bush in my book pulled off the PERFECT CRIME and got away with it.  A.K.A   "The Man Who Broke A NATION", and lived without regret.

couldn't find this post elsewhere, so i'll respond here 

my first thought--- g.d. cynical lawyers, conspiracy theorists etc.

i am also one of those cynics but i don't think that any part of your scenario will occur.  i do not see the forward-looking Obama administration looking backwards to investigate and charge etc (this seems to be part of the trade-off of non-partisanship etc.; going forward with a clean slate) .  I also think that the out-going admin. would feel safe enough to avoid using presidential pardons.

so, politically-- no way

legally- i think it would work; i.e. they would be pardoned at least from U.S. law, not sure of international (though i would hope they would not escape, but then again what teeth exist in international law to convict some former member of our gov't. of say mistreatment of detainees?? cf nazi war criminal trials).

The following interesting comment was posted on the thread I created about this topic in the Open Discussion group forum.  I thought I would paste it here:

Interesting point, iceking.  I don't know what the rules of evidence are for international crimes trials.  I suppose if Bush tried to pardon himself, then it may possibly be considered a possible admission of guilt.  But otherwise, I would think the person who was being pardoned could argue that he did not do the pardoning, so the pardoned person is not admitting anything.

As far as I know, the person does not have to explicitly accept the pardon.  I suppose by not rejecting the pardon (assuming they can do that), they are tacitly accepting the pardon.  Perhaps then, that may be said to be an implied admission of guilt?  Who knows?

Thanks for the comments!

George

Interesting points, wouldpusher.

As to your last point about whether there is enough teeth in international law, I would guess if the International Court of Justice in The Hague issued a warrant for the arrest of Bush and others, Interpol and US law enforcement would have to honor and execute it.  The same has been done before, as per your example.

Thanks!

George

george,

i guess what i was trying to say about international law was that it seems it would take something extremely egregious (like the Nazi war crimes) to get the international community to take legal action against the head of state (and/or his minions)

pat

I didn't think the pardoning scenario would happen simply because there didn't seem to be any interest on the part of anyone in a position to do anything about it.

I did think that Bush might resign shortly after the election, though. Not having to do with any pardons, but merely "return to family life in Texas by putting the transition in the able hands of President Cheney." Then--forever after--Dick Cheney's portrait would hang in presidential portrait galleries as the 44th President. Ugh!

Wow, I'm seeing this years later, but that's something I never considered.  Pardon, resign, and be pardoned.  And it's all constitutional.  Really, in anything like this where the President, VP, and other high officials are involved, it could happen.  The public backlash would be unimaginable, maybe we'd even see a constitutional amendment regarding that part of checks and balances, but a pardon is a pardon, and I believe it would have to stand.