Reti System vs Marshall Defense

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dodgecharger1968

A lot of players have probably recognized some shared themes between the Reti System and the Queen's Gambit.  Sometimes the same idea that is a blunder against QG is also a blunder against the Reti, such as the b5 move in support of the black pawn on c4 after accepting the c pawn.  Another one is the Marshall Defense (1d4 d5 2c4 Nf6 in whichever order), which can also be attempted against the Reti:  1Nf3 d5 2c4 Nf6.  It seems that 3cxd5 Nxd5 4e4 is winning from the database, but I'm curious if anyone has more insight into this variation.

cookie3

i noticed in game explorer that in Reti lines, after cxd5, white stands in excellent position.  after checking MCO-14 and COE4, most of the time, if white has the option of its c-pawn taking their d-pawn, the references recommend it, though, curiously, coe4 does not have this line in their, so i assume this means it is considered a mistake for black to play 2. ...Nf6.  i imagine because after the exchange of pawns, white gains a lead in development with Nc3.

I have noticed i do well when i play this OTB, but, i have not been able to convince any of our vote chess games to go this route.  personally i think it would make for great discussion, and is definately not a mainline, but many are scared of this line because noone is familiar with it, and we fear what we do not understand. 

i would be willing to play an unrated game from this position, if you would like.

wormrose

@cookie3 - In chess we have good reason to fear what we don't understand. Laughing

I have encountered 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 Nf6 several times and we saw it once in a VC game. We lost the VC game vs Chess School on a time-out. Embarassed See it [HERE]

We played 4.Nc3 after 3.cxd5 Nxd5 and I believe we lost the initiative due to that. Since then I have played 4.e4 on 5 occasions in my personal games but made mistakes further down the line. Those games are still in progress.

I didn't know it was a line in the QG. I am not well versed in the QG. I can't tell if my opponents are playing 2.Nf6 because of the Marshall or because they don't know what they are doing.

I will say that I find it awkward playing against it and I hope there will be more contributions in this topic.

dodgecharger1968

I've been meaning to post about it, and a buddy is defending my Reti this way in an online game, which reminded me.  The Marshall Defense is a very natural way for black to develop, but is actually very weak and sometimes considered a blunder (maybe it's better to say it leads to an array of blunders in the opening, but black might come out unscathed with absolutely flawless play).  Essentially, white gains tempo on the knight--or queen--on d5, and builds a strong center in the process, while black has few resources to fight back with his slow development and missing d pawn.  Anyway, I'm mostly curious whether anyone knows how to REALLY punish this defense, but it sounds like there's a general lack of familiarity and confidence.

After 1d4 d5 2c4 Nf6 3cxd5 Nxd5, white is supposed to play Nf3 (Reti is way ahead of you, QG) to prevent e5, then follows with 5e4, kicking the knight.  From what I've seen, black often plays 4...g6, hoping for a Gruenfeld, but as long as you play e4 before Nc3, it won't help.  So the difference for the Reti is that white hasn't spent a tempo on the d pawn, and black doesn't get a move to figure out how to handle e4.

Power-Up

According to my book, The Dynamic Reti, Nf6 is a common reply. But usually it's blacks first move, or after 1...e6