Starting Position Reverted to OLD

{Added by BabYagun:

This change was made in a hurry without proper voting. It will be reverted.

The default starting position may be changed in the future, probably to the "bsrti" setup. However, this will happen after proper deliberation.

Our apologies for the mess.

I've locked this thread. Please continue the "old vs bsrti vs oma" discussion in another thread.}

Dear 4PC Community,

As a response to your backlash and objective criticism of the Omatamix setup we have
reviewed our starting position choice with the help of 4PC Standard Experts and the newly-promoted 4PC Admins. The Standard Starting Position has been reverted to what is known as the Old Standard, while Omatamix is replaced by the new candidate starting position: bsrti setup.

Please test out the bsrti setup for both Teams and FFA.

There will be no changes of the starting position anytime soon, but we can descry ourselves analyzing the various options and seeking to improve the quality of the Standard Game.

In addition, we reverted the 4P Giveaway starting position, as it encouraged throwing and
precluded the players from having any control over their game outcome.

Ok

LETS ******* GOOOOOOOOOO

you keep changing. Please stick to something and let it be.

Go new standard 

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I will say it anyway. I hope people will realise the old standard wasn't that great. At least, in team, the Omatamix setup permitted to have about equal winning chances with blue/green and red/yellow. In FFA, as the "team mode" is less present it's probably less revelant to have a specific starting position. 

In team, do people really missed the old blue/green openings? Really? The opening were often always the same too. People were complaning when they had blue/green a couple of games in a row. At least, with Omatamix setup both teams can get the queens out fast. Omatamix was called "boring". What? People do you remember the not so great blue/green openings from the old setup?

At least, you are testing the bsrti setup which could be a solution to replace the old unbalanced setup in teams. I know it's impossible to please everyone. But please, people, if you realise the old position wasn't that great in teams acknolewge this fact.

Thanks to the admin and developpers for listening to the community and your work. 

Phew.

a) THAT'S GOOD!!!

b) I suggest a possibility for the players who launch (and join) the games simply choose "<Old> Standard"/"Omatamix"/"BRSTI"/whatever else", and like that people are free to play whatever they want. In the long run one position will become more popular.

It's important though not to put these different set-ups in different rooms. I've tried many times to launch an Old Standard game, and nobody was joining or just 1 person of 3 needed. Simply because people DO NOT SEE all games open if they didn't chose the appropriate option. It's important not to subdivide, but to have all these FFA games together.

(Already now people have 1p Q or normal Q, promotion on this or that row, etc., so we're already used to options).

As I suggested, 5 years for each starting position, although, as crazy as it seems (my statement) I still think that admins made the right decision, especially CLAP for not changing it into any other setup anytime soon (maybe one can experiment with (one day)) and keeping oma, bsrti and the other ones as variants.

YYYEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!1!

The main problems I have with the omatamix setup is the symmetry and lack of variety in opening choices that the position generates.  There seem to only essentially 3-5 setups as bg that seem playable: a c7 Nc9 setup, a c7 c9/d9 setup, and a Nc9/c9 d8 setup.  I regard c7 c9 (and to a lesser extent c7 d9) with a decent amount of positional suspicion, whilst Nc9/c9 d8 is definitely a tactical mess that will take time to correctly evaluate.  However, what ends up happening is we get a large amount of symmetrical positions right out of the opening.  1. h3 c7 g12 l8 2.f3 c9 i12 l6 is one I see a lot, as well as 1.h3 c7 g12 l8 2.Qj4 Qd5 Qe11 Qk10.  Symmetrical positions, regardless of their evaluation, are not particularly enjoyable to play for most, nor do they fuel a sense of equality for bg, as they remain a move behind.  Neither is there much opportunity to play other openings as bg.  For example, after 1.h3 c7 i12, there are only two good moves for green (l8, k11).  Only ry enjoy the opportunity to break symmetry and play a variety of openings.  Those include 1.h3 c7 g12 l8 and now 2.Qk5 or e4, or 1.h4.

Now compare this to the old position.  While bg might be worse off, they enjoy more options in terms of setups that they can play.  These include the four mainstream openings (c7 c6, d6, c7 Qb7, and Nc9 c8), as well as some fringe openings (d11, c5, Nc6), including a number of move order changes. Most importantly, these openings create imbalance and asymmetry, which makes positions interesting and fun to play.  As a person who queues into games alone, the majority of my games are bg.  It is both fun and a challenge to find a way as bg to equalize the ry advantage.  I am able to do so and win the majority of those games.  The great thing about the old setup is it promotes imbalance from the beginning, which fuels creative and imbalanced games.  

That being said, for teams, although I much prefer the old position, the omatamix setup is interesting as well and can be fun to play.  I feel a lot of people's dislike for the setup is having to put in the effort to learn how to play a new position, having played the old position so much.  This also (I suspect) stems from people playing openings and moves without understanding underlying principles, which makes finding good ways to play difficult.  

YYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY

OLD 4PC STANDERD

As a teams player I liked the new omata start, guess I'll be taking a break from chess.  Please get new setup asap.

You have returned the worst possible starting position due to the votes of several people!?! Great. Congratulations! If you have already started with the changes, then switch immediately to the bsrti position and not return to the most unbalanced one. There is not a single normal reason to return to the worst position except to satisfy a few loud lazy players who hate to learn new openings! What is next - to bring back FFA scoring system and ruin everything?!? 

Isn't the bsrti setup the most balanced setup possible? Why haven't you just used it from the start? 

What are your thoughts on the bsrti setup so far?  Seems to be more balanced than the Old Setup, and it's got more variety over Omatamix. 

I agree. The bsrti setup has been found to be most balanced by the 4pc engines, but isn't stale like the omatamix.

I really don't know why people don't like new Standard...
It is the faires of all setups. Same starting position for each color same chances for each color.

I also don't get what people mean by "New Standard is boring"... What do you mean? Are the games always the same? How? After the short teaming phase in the Opening it is Solo and Solo games are never the same and never boring.
And even the Opening isn't always the same. Because I play a different one, and I am #5 on the leaderboard. So there are other Openings possible. You can be forced into the Standard Opening if you are green, but your options are always more limited if you are the last moving player. It is even worse in Old Standard.

Maybe Omatomix is not right for Teams, I can't talk about that, because I don't know much about teams. But it is for sure the better Setup for FFA and Solo.

I think that a lot of players who are crying about New Standard are more affected by the rating change than by the new setup. Because in FFA your primary goal is to be not 4th and only your secondary goal is to be 1st. In solo only winning counts. People who played perfect teams opening, mate a player, and then go "whatever, some I win some I lose" are basically out of high elo FFA. Both strategies do not work anymore. They need new teams strats because the setup changed and also being good in teams does not mean anything in FFA anymore. And those players (or noble gases) are mad now because all they've learned over the last years is worth nothing now.

I profit from both changes because I have been a solo player ever since, and also my playstyle (King security: always castle to the right) is easier to play in Omatomix. So probably my Opinion is heavily biased.

But I don't want Omatomix because it's better for me, I want it because it is objectively the better setup. And I feel strengthened in my opinion by @neoserbian because he is one of those players like me who has always been around and always been on the top. And @neoserbian, reigning world Champ Lars and I are the only 3 players who have played all 3 solo world championships. I don't know what Lars' opinion on this topic is, but It should give you something to think about if 2 of the 3 players with the most high elo experience in the world are very strongly for Omatomix.

Cheers Michael

Have only played a few games, I don't have any opinion thus far.   I will need at least 100 games to form a serious opinion about the position, and I don't take anyone's evaluation of the position seriously if they form theirs after only a few games.

 You don't play teams, which is the only mode here where the opening is particularly important.