Summary of research on e4 e5.

I am and i always be an e5 defender. It’s why today, helped by @AlwaysGetFlagged and @sicilian_defender_I, we searched in the deepest and weirdest lines of e5 to proof it’s WAY BETTER than c6 e6. I am very lazy so I won’t put commentaries for now but I may add some later. Anyway, time for spell chess !

1. e4 e5

2. freeze@c8 Bb5 freeze@b4 Bb4

3. c3 c6

4. cxb4 cxb5

5. Nc3 Nf6

6. Nxb5 O-O

7. Qb3 d5

8. Qg3 Bg4

9. h3 Nc6

10. hxg4 Nxb4

11. Qb3 Nd3+

12. Kf1 Nxg4

And this is better for black because they can’t stop all the freeze checks and jump mates.

1. e4 e5

2. freeze@c8 Bb5 freeze@b4 Bb4

3. c3 c6

4. cxb4 cxb5

5. Nc3 Nf6

6. Nxb5 O-O

7. Nd6 Qb6

8. Qb3 freeze@b2 Qxd6

And this might also be better for black.

If you’re still not convinced, well tell in the forum the “problematic” lines, and remember nothing is problematic for e5 !

@AlwaysGetFlagged

@sicilian_defender_I

@Delhy

e5 is the way (I'm also an e5 believer lately). The main objective, from my POV, is to prevent e5 for white, which creates a huge outpost for the knights.I do think, though, that the first problematic line is d4, most likely in move 5 instead of Nc3, but definitely in move 6 (I think Nxb5 is a really bad move here).

d4 line (after 5. Nc3 Nf6):

6. d4 O-O
7. freeze@d7 dxe5 freeze@d4 Nc6
8. Nf3 Re8 (here black could also jump+trade the queens) 
9. O-O d5
White has a solid position and can start generating a lot of threads in king's side.

If 6. d4 exd4:

7. Nxb5 O-O (I think castling is the only good move here, otherwise it gets scary for black)
8. freeze@e7 Bg5 d3
9. Qb3 freeze@c3 Qe8
And White is still solid and has good initiative to strike the king's side.

Now, if white still plays Nc3 and Nxb5, I do think Qb3 creates a good position for black so I'd go for the Nd6 line, maybe with Nc6 instead of Qb6? The continuations look slightly better in my head, but I'd need to analyse them deeper.

Anyhow, I love the exercise, thanks to the 3 of you for a nice research

@TwoPotionsOneMate In your first line move 9 O-O d5 isn’t black’s knight hanging ?

Yes, but I can't see any move where black saves that knight and doesn't end up in a very bad position? Maybe there is, but I can't come up with a better one. Like:

9. O-O jump@d7 Qxd1
10. freeze@e6 Rxd1 Nxe5
11. Nxe5 Rxe5
12. Bf4 Re6

Okay, so maybe there is, and you are right haha. The knight sacrifice line has some aggressiveness to it, though. You can take the pawn and then outpost the knight on b4 and the bishop on g4 after the queen exchange, activating the pieces and looking for some tactics. But I guess not hanging the knight is the safest option (I just like to play a bit kamikaze sometimes)

@TwoPotionsOneMate

What do you think about the second line with Nd6?

I played a bunch of games against @Noob-AI-81 today and I think it has potential for both sides, I can’t decide who is better.

The most critical line is probably

7. Nd6 Qb6

8. Qb3 freeze@c3 Qxd6

9. Nh3 Qe6

10. freeze@e7 Ng5 jump@a7 Rxa2

11. Nxe6 Rxa1

This is pretty messy and it is possible that I missed some moves here, but I think it has potential and would appreciate if you could take a look at it. 
If black doesn’t play 8. freeze@c2 Qxd6 the knight is very annoying, and if they do they have to navigate the following minefield.

Another interesting (and I now think better) move for black is

8. Qb3 Kh8, which looks like it walks right into

9. Nxf7+ Rxf7, but this doesn’t work, because black has

10. Qxf7 Qxb4, which is (at least) a draw, since black can keep checking.

9. freeze@b7 Nc4 is probably the better response.

@AlwaysGetFlagged ok so it seems like in the line I was thinking about at the beginning white is simply better, however there are other moves possible after 8. Qb3, I would say there are two moves to explore. However if these researches aren’t finishing with something ok, we’ll have to look at before.

@Delhy Hmm, I can't see any other viable moves besides maybe jump@b4 Qxb3? I'd still pick freeze+take d6 though.

@AlwaysGetFlagged I'd also consider line 9. Ne2 instead of h3 with the objective to outpost on f5 if there is a chance. Still, I'd be happy to play Nh3 if black's answer is Qe6 (freeze@f7 Qg3 and black can't stop the mate).

On your second line (8. Qb3 Kh8), white has freeze@g7 Nxf7!!
8. Qb3 Kh8
9. freeze@g7 Nxf7 freeze@e6 Qc7
10. Qh3 Kg8 (tickle tickle)
11. Qb3 jump@d7 Be6
12. Qg3 Ng4
13. Nh6

And black might be in big trouble, can still save the position using a freeze spell, but the resulting position looks winning for white.

Maybe there are other lines like jumping over the knight with the pawn and after Qg3 get into the same kind of position that my first line with Bg4 h3 Nc6

I have the feeling that the resulting position is slightly better for black in that line though, especially if black plays Qxb4 instead of Nc6:

8. Qb3 jump@d6 d5
9. Qg3 Bg4
10. h3 Qxb4
11. Kf8 freeze@g2 Nh5
12. freeze@h4 d3 Qb5
13. Nxb5 Nxg3
14. Ke1 Nxh1
15. hxg4 hxf2
16. Nc2 Nxd3

This definitely looks bad for white

For some reason I ruled out both

8. Qb3 jump@d6 d5 and

8. Qb3 jump@d7 Be6 before, but they look both playable to me now. It is worth noting, that

9. freeze@f7 Qg3 freeze@f2 Qxf2 is mate (I mention it because I fall for this all the time)

So did we do it?

Is a pawn jump now part of spell chess opening theory? 🤣

White was able to force a jump with the knight blockade on d6, but is behind in development because of it. 
Something along the lines of

8. Qb3 jump@d6 d5

9. Nf5 Bxf5

10. exf5 Re8

11. Kf1 looks equal enough to me, although I would still choose Black if I had to.

But Black can force White to go into the first line with

8. Qb3 jump@d7 Be6

9. Qg3 Bg4

etc, but I would argue that this is an improvement, because the knight on d6 is still hard to remove and covers c4 and b5, which the black queen would love to deliver checks from after

10. h3 Qxb4

11. Kf1

Yep, I basically agree with all of that!

Another line I find interesting on e4 e5 is the Be2 variation instead of trading bishops (Only 1% of the games in spellchess dot win!!!!). For white, Be2 feels way better than Bc4, which is the second most played move

1. e4 e5
2. freeze@c8 Bb5 freeze@b4 Bb4
3. c3 c6
4. Be2 Bc5
5. d4 exd4
6. freeze@f7 Bh5 jump@h7 Rxh5
7. jump@h2 Rxh5 dxc3
8. Rxc5 Qh4
9. Kf1 d5

Looks pretty bad for black. I can't see an obvious move for black that turns around the position. Maybe 6. freeze@f7 Bh5 freeze@g4 Qe7? Yeah, I think that's the move. Still looking slightly better for white after Kf1, g6, Be2, d5, exd5, Bf5; hard to tell

Your second line is probably better for black, but even

7. jump@h2 Rxh5 Qe7

8. Rxc5 Qxc5

9. freeze@c6 d4 freeze@d3 Kd8

Looks playable to me.

Also, in your second line, how does white defend against

8. Be2 d5

9. exd5 freeze@g2 Bh3

10. freeze@h4 Qe1 Bb4

And even before that, Black is more developed, so I don’t think white is slightly better here.

So, on your first proposal, I still think it looks pretty bad for black:

7. jump@h2 Rxh5 Qe7
8. Rxc5 Qxc5
9. freeze@c6 d4 freeze@d3 Kd8
10. Nf3 Qe7
11. Kf1 f6 (to avoid freeze+Bg5)
12. d5 Qxe4
13. dxc6 Ke1
14. Nd2 freeze@e2 Qd3

White is totally crushing in this position, and I don't see any obvious defence for black.

On your second one, I'd go with:

8. Be2 d5
9. exd5 freeze@g2 Bh3
10. freeze@h4 Bf3 Bb4
11. Nxh3 Nf6
12. Bg5 Qe5
13. Qe1 Qxe1
14. jump@f1 Rxe1 Kf8
15. Bxf6 Nd7

It looks completely lost for black

You are right, 9. exd5 freeze@g2 Bh3 doesn’t work in the second line.

But the position after move 8 still looks completely fine for me, I would in fact choose black, since they are ahead in development.

Or do you see any ideas for white here?

I think I'd still choose white, but it's close for sure. Black is not so far ahead in development, and the king is still in the centre.

Something along these lines:

9. exd5 Bf5
10. d6 Bxd6
11. Qxd4 freeze@e3 Bd3
12. freeze@c4 Be3 Qxe3
13. Bxd3 Qxd4
14. cxd4

It looks very equal, wouldn't be able to pick a side

I have immense difficulty with the black pieces in this (and similar) lines:

1. e4 e5

2. Qf3 Bc5

3. Bc4 Qe7

4. freeze@f7 Bxf7 freeze@f8 Bb4

5. c3 Qxf7

6. Qxf7 Kxf7

7. cxb4

In my opinion White’s extra tempo hurts Black a ton in all of these Bxf7 lines.

If you see a way for Black to deviate from this (preferably already on move 2) let me know, because I currently consider this to be the refutation for 1. e4 e5.

White‘s minor pieces are coming in fast and the black King is a huge target.

I'd go for 2. Qf3 freeze@c2 Bb4

Actually not a bad move.
White is better, Flex‘s engine thinks it is +3, although I don’t think it’s that much.

But most importantly it is still a complicated position with lots of play left, whereas in the other line the position is so dry and simple, that it is very hard for Black to develop counterplay.

Thanks

I totally agree. If I had to give an evaluation, I'd say it's around 0 or slightly better for black, but lot's of ideas from here so it's not an easy refutation