The fundamental problem with Automate, and a couple possible solutions

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MGleason

As currently implemented, there is a fundamental problem with Automate.  Some changes were made since its initial release, but they haven't really addressed the underlying issue.

The key problem is that there is an optimal setup, and that it isn't particularly difficult to find.

With the initial beta release, it used the original piece values.  And people quickly figured out that the optimal setup involved a flood of pawns and bishops.

The piece values were changed to prevent this, but rather than solving the real problem, it just changed the optimal mix.  There is still an optimal setup, it's just not the same as it used to be.  It's a little harder to find than the pawns/bishops, but anyone can experiment for a few games and figure it out.

Tweaks to piece values will not solve this.  Tweaks to piece values might, if perfectly balanced, result in 2-3 setups that are equally good, but no matter what you do, people will find these setups and start using them.

And once someone starts using an optimal setup, they'll generally never lose.  And people farther down in the rating pool will see what they're doing and copy it.  Eventually, anyone who is reasonably alert will find this optimal setup, and we'll quickly reach draw death as all the top players are using the same mix of pieces.

A couple possible solutions:

  1. Randomise the piece values and the total permitted points for every game.  For example, the total points could be random in the range 20-45.  Pawn values should be fixed at 1, or could be random in the range 1-2.  Knights and bishops could be random in the range 2-5.  Rooks could be random in the range 3-7.  Queens could be random in the range 6-12.
    For example, you might have a game with a total of 42 points, P=1, N=4, B=3, R=7, Q=6.  The optimal setup might involve a mix of bishops and queens.
    Your next game might have 23 total points, P=1, N=2, B=4, R=3, Q=8.  Knights would be cheap, but rooks are cheap too, and with only 23 total points the board will be fairly open, and you'd have to decide whether you prefer rooks or knights or a mix.

    Each game would still have an optimal setup, but it would be different for every game, and you'd have to figure it out on the fly.

  2. Relax the restrictions on where you can place pieces.

    Your initial six pawns should be placed according to the current rules: 2nd and 3rd rank (5th and 6th for Black).  After that, you should be able to place pieces anywhere (except that pawns can't go on the 1st and 8th ranks).

    There should be a maximum of 10 pawns instead of 8.  Yes, you should be able to place multiple pawns on the same file if you want.

    There should be no rule against placing pieces behind the other person's pawns.  These pieces may be stranded without much support, but they could also be threatening everything.

    If you are unable to place a king on an unthreatened square, you lose instantly.  Of course, neither side should place the king until all other pieces have been placed.

    As a result, you would have tactical decisions to make during the setup phase.  Right now, it's pretty straightforward to ensure that everything is sufficiently defended and all your pieces are reasonably active, so all you need to do is get the right mix of pieces.  But with this rule change, where you place your pieces suddenly becomes at least as important as what you place.  You can place a piece to create a threat - and your opponent will have to react to it by placing something to defend the threat.

    It's not hard to imagine weird setups where, after the initial six pawns are placed, both players put all their pieces behind the other player's pawn wall.

Either of these rule tweaks would solve the problem.  I actually think the two of them together would be a lot of fun: randomise the total points and piece values for every game, and also allow tactical complications during the setup phase.  That would ensure that every game is unique, that we don't see all the top players using the exact same setup, and that high-level games are not all draws involving the same setups in every game.

jbesky

The second rule you mentioned was more in line with what I was expecting Automate to be as a crazyhouse amateur. The number of tactical options left to the piece placer are very limited, in addition to the number of squares you can place on for non-tactical reasons. It also gives more importance to which order you place your pieces in, so as to block your opponent from dropping there.

The first rule you mentioned seems interesting too, but with your first example, the rook is more expensive than the queen. That seems to impede on the viability of it, so maybe there need to be tighter rules on the range. It wouldn't happen often, but still, if the rook's cost range was something more like 4-6(rook's for 3 seems too cheap).

Either of these ideas seems sufficient to give Automate more significant strategy, I think. The first one does introduce randomness, but I think a fair amount of variant-players will be OK with 960-esque (without the occasional awkwardness of the piece placements) randomness (only at the beginning of the game, and equally), but the second would lead to more tactical and crazyhouse-like positions, which is less in line with how it currently is.

When it comes down to it, I think one of these rules is to make it more like crazyhouse, and the other to make it more like 960. Both seem good to avoid people constantly playing the top player's systems (or opponent's), as most setups are solid and it doesn't matter what your opponent does against it if you have the best setup.

MGleason
jbesky wrote:

The first rule you mentioned seems interesting too, but with your first example, the rook is more expensive than the queen. That seems to impede on the viability of it, so maybe there need to be tighter rules on the range. It wouldn't happen often, but still, if the rook's cost range was something more like 4-6(rook's for 3 seems too cheap).

I don't see a problem with a low probability that a rook is more expensive than a queen.

With the piece placement restrictions, there will always be an optimal mix of pieces, and there will be pieces that are not part of that.  Randomising prices means that the mix is different every game.  It's inevitable that will sometimes mean some pieces are not viable.  If you change that example so that R=6 and Q=7, rooks are still not viable.

jbesky

They might not be "viable" to use consistantly, sure, but they might be used under some circumstances. Like maybe you have exactly 6 left and you think a rook would be good. If the rook is more expensive than the queen, it would only appear when someone makes a mouse-slip or doesn't realize that they could get a queen for the same price or less. Under conditions, there might be a rook, and maybe this would appear in the best set-up, but when the rook is more costly than the queen, it won't appear in the best set-up, making the perfect set-up easier to find by excluding a piece. As I don't like the possibility that rooks should be completely neglected in some games, I think queens should always be more costly than each of the rook and bishop (individually).

MGleason

Hmm... but if the rook is only one less than the queen, it's probably already not viable.

Maybe my original ranges are fine, but with the extra restriction that the queen is worth more than the rook, so the rook can only be 7 if the queen is at least 8 and the queen can only be 6 if the rook is 5 or less?

jbesky

Yes, that would meet my critique. It is a bit more complicated than shrinking the range, but it would allow for more combinations of random piece values.

Upon thinking about it, I was trying to play the sceptic, and I came up with a thought.

We might be taking for granted the (theoretically existent) perfect piece layout. I haven't found any layout that just blows the balance out of proportions (opposed to an older balance, where bishops were 3 and really strong, but now at 4, they can't keep up with the knight). Maybe there is some amount that what the opponent's setup is changes what the best setup is (somewhat like what the best move changes in openings according to what your opponent plays, or, for a more extreme example, Rock Paper Scissors). I find it unlikely that this makes a huge difference, though, as the amount of player interaction is probably very small.

MGleason

I've seen games where someone made a mistake in the setup and left tactical opportunities for their opponent; it involved rooks on an open file and black didn't have enough defenders on the front rook.  That can change the optimal mix.  But that's easy to avoid.  So long as you avoid tactics in the starting position (which is easy under the current rules), it's all about the mix of pieces.

Relaxing the rules on piece placement would allow for tactics in the starting position.

MGleason

I use a similar setup but haven't played much.  Anyone who stops and thinks about what an optimal setup is likely to be is going to eventually start doing more or less the same thing.

Scarlet_Evans

Some other fundamental problem: how does one even place the pieces on the phone? 

When I try to play it, I end up with the tiny pawn hovering over the very first file of the board, without ability to place it wherever I want. 

Clicking on the board, unless it's the square that the pawn is hovering over, is doing nothing, as well as trying to drag it does nothing. I can try to scroll the screen on my phone up-down and maybe somehow place 1-2 pawns on the first file, but that's it.

I sometimes play other variants on my phone, like Fog of War, but in Automate I like always lose during the placement phase, as I can't even do it on my phone sad.png

Is it not crafted and adjusted to be compatible with the mobile players yet? 

heth_barmon29
MGleason wrote:

As currently implemented, there is a fundamental problem with Automate.  Some changes were made since its initial release, but they haven't really addressed the underlying issue.

The key problem is that there is an optimal setup, and that it isn't particularly difficult to find.

With the initial beta release, it used the original piece values.  And people quickly figured out that the optimal setup involved a flood of pawns and bishops.

The piece values were changed to prevent this, but rather than solving the real problem, it just changed the optimal mix.  There is still an optimal setup, it's just not the same as it used to be.  It's a little harder to find than the pawns/bishops, but anyone can experiment for a few games and figure it out.

Tweaks to piece values will not solve this.  Tweaks to piece values might, if perfectly balanced, result in 2-3 setups that are equally good, but no matter what you do, people will find these setups and start using them.

And once someone starts using an optimal setup, they'll generally never lose.  And people farther down in the rating pool will see what they're doing and copy it.  Eventually, anyone who is reasonably alert will find this optimal setup, and we'll quickly reach draw death as all the top players are using the same mix of pieces.

A couple possible solutions:

  1. Randomise the piece values and the total permitted points for every game.  For example, the total points could be random in the range 20-45.  Pawn values should be fixed at 1, or could be random in the range 1-2.  Knights and bishops could be random in the range 2-5.  Rooks could be random in the range 3-7.  Queens could be random in the range 6-12.
    For example, you might have a game with a total of 42 points, P=1, N=4, B=3, R=7, Q=6.  The optimal setup might involve a mix of bishops and queens.
    Your next game might have 23 total points, P=1, N=2, B=4, R=3, Q=8.  Knights would be cheap, but rooks are cheap too, and with only 23 total points the board will be fairly open, and you'd have to decide whether you prefer rooks or knights or a mix.

    Each game would still have an optimal setup, but it would be different for every game, and you'd have to figure it out on the fly.

  2. Relax the restrictions on where you can place pieces.

    Your initial six pawns should be placed according to the current rules: 2nd and 3rd rank (5th and 6th for Black).  After that, you should be able to place pieces anywhere (except that pawns can't go on the 1st and 8th ranks).

    There should be a maximum of 10 pawns instead of 8.  Yes, you should be able to place multiple pawns on the same file if you want.

    There should be no rule against placing pieces behind the other person's pawns.  These pieces may be stranded without much support, but they could also be threatening everything.

    If you are unable to place a king on an unthreatened square, you lose instantly.  Of course, neither side should place the king until all other pieces have been placed.

    As a result, you would have tactical decisions to make during the setup phase.  Right now, it's pretty straightforward to ensure that everything is sufficiently defended and all your pieces are reasonably active, so all you need to do is get the right mix of pieces.  But with this rule change, where you place your pieces suddenly becomes at least as important as what you place.  You can place a piece to create a threat - and your opponent will have to react to it by placing something to defend the threat.

    It's not hard to imagine weird setups where, after the initial six pawns are placed, both players put all their pieces behind the other player's pawn wall.

Either of these rule tweaks would solve the problem.  I actually think the two of them together would be a lot of fun: randomise the total points and piece values for every game, and also allow tactical complications during the setup phase.  That would ensure that every game is unique, that we don't see all the top players using the exact same setup, and that high-level games are not all draws involving the same setups in every game.

im in the place to say this that since they didnt change the values and its been a year now, u predicted alot of the things such as lower rated players copying the most winning setups and farming other noobs so it spreads like a plague, but the mode still possesses lots of possibilities in the realms of creating counter setups adaptivly in game. in theory u can solve every setup but its gonna take a long time and no body would do it. one coz the bot depth isnt high enough for it to be worthy, secondly the mode rating system is triggering. so i feel the best way to play it is against another great player thats willing to play lots of games with u, then u could both enjoy the creativity the mode offers.