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strangequark
strangequark
Apr 30, 2010
0
#21

"Their experiences have nothing to do with the texts they've written"-Now how is that possible?

"firstly, Genesis is a laugh and a half. It doesn't even agree with itself from chapter to chapter and looks like it was written by a two year old :P" I don't intend to take Genesis as literal or as consistent. I think the most important part is what the author feels conveyed to give. In Genesis, what was important to the author was the relationship between the natural and spiritual role of man; it was never intended to be a historical account.

"To reconcile the "seeming differences" you'd have to insist that the same account was re-written multiple times to sound different for no apparent reason as translation and the fact so many "creation stories" exist seem to point otherwise"-Of course, it is not in my interest to reconcile accounts that were illustrations of what the author wanted to convey. What I would be interested in, would be to uphold the validity of consistency, etc. of the Bible on doctrinal matters.

Math_magician
Math_magician
Apr 30, 2010
0
#22

"There have been substantial floods. But nothing that has covered mountains (well, certainly not since humans evolved)."  -  A charming statement of faith!  What is your proof?

On the topic of rain and the flood - the Bible indicates that rain was not the only source of water.  Genesis 7:11 states that "the fountains of were opened", which seems to indicate some sort of violent geologic upheaval, possibly volcanic and/or tectonic.  It also seems to imply that some underground source of water was tapped.

"firstly, Genesis is a laugh and a half. It doesn't even agree with itself from chapter to chapter and looks like it was written by a two year old :P"  -  This comment shows a common type of non-argument called 'mud-slinging'.  If you would bring examples of disrepancies, I would be glad to address them.

kawazaki
kawazaki
Apr 30, 2010
0
#23
Lo! We sent Noah unto his people (saying): Warn thy people ere the painful doom come unto them. (1)
إِنَّا أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا إِلَى قَوْمِهِ أَنْ أَنذِرْ قَوْمَكَ مِن قَبْلِ أَن يَأْتِيَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (1)
 
He said: O my people! Lo! I am a plain warner unto you (2)
قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي لَكُمْ نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ (2)
 
(Bidding you): Serve Allah and keep your duty unto Him and obey me, (3)
أَنِ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ وَاتَّقُوهُ وَأَطِيعُونِ (3)
 
That He may forgive you somewhat of your sins and respite you to an appointed term. Lo! the term of Allah, when it cometh, cannot be delayed, if ye but knew. (4)
يَغْفِرْ لَكُم مِّن ذُنُوبِكُمْ وَيُؤَخِّرْكُمْ إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى إِنَّ أَجَلَ اللَّهِ إِذَا جَاء لَا يُؤَخَّرُ لَوْ كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ (4)
 
He said: My Lord! Lo! I have called unto my people night and day (5)
قَالَ رَبِّ إِنِّي دَعَوْتُ قَوْمِي لَيْلًا وَنَهَارًا (5)
 
But all my calling doth but add to their repugnance; (6)
فَلَمْ يَزِدْهُمْ دُعَائِي إِلَّا فِرَارًا (6)
 
And lo ! whenever I call unto them that Thou mayest pardon them they thrust their fingers in their ears and cover themselves with their garments and persist (in their refusal) and magnify themselves in pride. (7)
وَإِنِّي كُلَّمَا دَعَوْتُهُمْ لِتَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ جَعَلُوا أَصَابِعَهُمْ فِي آذَانِهِمْ وَاسْتَغْشَوْا ثِيَابَهُمْ وَأَصَرُّوا وَاسْتَكْبَرُوا اسْتِكْبَارًا (7)
 
And lo! I have called unto them aloud, (8)
ثُمَّ إِنِّي دَعَوْتُهُمْ جِهَارًا (8)
 
And lo! I have made public proclamation unto them, and I have appealed to them in private. (9)
ثُمَّ إِنِّي أَعْلَنتُ لَهُمْ وَأَسْرَرْتُ لَهُمْ إِسْرَارًا (9)
 
And I have said: Seek pardon of your Lord Lo! He was ever Forgiving. (10)
فَقُلْتُ اسْتَغْفِرُوا رَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ كَانَ غَفَّارًا (10)
 
He will let loose the sky for you in plenteous rain, (11)
يُرْسِلِ السَّمَاء عَلَيْكُم مِّدْرَارًا (11)
 
And will help you with wealth and sons, and will assign unto you Gardens and will assign unto you rivers. (12)
وَيُمْدِدْكُمْ بِأَمْوَالٍ وَبَنِينَ وَيَجْعَل لَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ وَيَجْعَل لَّكُمْ أَنْهَارًا (12)
 
What aileth you that ye hope not toward Allah for dignity (13)
مَّا لَكُمْ لَا تَرْجُونَ لِلَّهِ وَقَارًا (13)
 
When He created you by (divers) stages? (14)
وَقَدْ خَلَقَكُمْ أَطْوَارًا (14)
 
See ye not how Allah hath created seven heavens in harmony, (15)
أَلَمْ تَرَوْا كَيْفَ خَلَقَ اللَّهُ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ طِبَاقًا (15)
 
And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp? (16)
وَجَعَلَ الْقَمَرَ فِيهِنَّ نُورًا وَجَعَلَ الشَّمْسَ سِرَاجًا (16)
 
And Allah hath caused you to grow as a growth from the earth, (17)
وَاللَّهُ أَنبَتَكُم مِّنَ الْأَرْضِ نَبَاتًا (17)
 
And afterward He maketh you return thereto, and He will bring you forth again, a (new) forthbringing. (18)
ثُمَّ يُعِيدُكُمْ فِيهَا وَيُخْرِجُكُمْ إِخْرَاجًا (18)
 
And Allah hath made the earth a wide expanse for you (19)
وَاللَّهُ جَعَلَ لَكُمُ الْأَرْضَ بِسَاطًا (19)
 
That ye may thread the valley ways thereof. (20)
لِتَسْلُكُوا مِنْهَا سُبُلًا فِجَاجًا (20)
 
Noah said: My Lord! they have disobeyed me and followed one whose wealth and children increase him in naught save ruin; (21)
قَالَ نُوحٌ رَّبِّ إِنَّهُمْ عَصَوْنِي وَاتَّبَعُوا مَن لَّمْ يَزِدْهُ مَالُهُ وَوَلَدُهُ إِلَّا خَسَارًا (21)
 
And they have plotted a mighty plot, (22)
وَمَكَرُوا مَكْرًا كُبَّارًا (22)
 
And they have said: Forsake not your gods. Forsake not Wadd, nor Suwa, nor Yaghuth and Yauq and Nasr. (23)
وَقَالُوا لَا تَذَرُنَّ آلِهَتَكُمْ وَلَا تَذَرُنَّ وَدًّا وَلَا سُوَاعًا وَلَا يَغُوثَ وَيَعُوقَ وَنَسْرًا (23)
 
And they have led many astray, and Thou increasest the wrong doers in naught save error. (24)
وَقَدْ أَضَلُّوا كَثِيراً وَلَا تَزِدِ الظَّالِمِينَ إِلَّا ضَلَالًا (24)
 
Because of their sins they were drowned, then made to enter a Fire. And they found they had no helpers in place of Allah. (25)
مِمَّا خَطِيئَاتِهِمْ أُغْرِقُوا فَأُدْخِلُوا نَارًا فَلَمْ يَجِدُوا لَهُم مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ أَنصَارًا (25)
 
And Noah said: My Lord! Leave not one of the disbelievers in the land. (26)
وَقَالَ نُوحٌ رَّبِّ لَا تَذَرْ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ دَيَّارًا (26)
 
If Thou shouldst leave them, they will mislead Thy slaves and will beget none save lewd ingrates. (27)
إِنَّكَ إِن تَذَرْهُمْ يُضِلُّوا عِبَادَكَ وَلَا يَلِدُوا إِلَّا فَاجِرًا كَفَّارًا (27)
 
My Lord! Forgive me and my parents and him who entereth my house believing, and believing men and believing women, and increase not the wrong doers in aught save ruin. (28)
رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَلِوَالِدَيَّ وَلِمَن دَخَلَ بَيْتِيَ مُؤْمِنًا وَلِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَلَا تَزِدِ الظَّالِمِينَ إِلَّا تَبَارًا (28)
 
strangequark
strangequark
Apr 30, 2010
0
#24

I need to read the Quran some day. Math_magician, why do you wish to ascertain that there are no trivial inconsistencies (because I am fairly sure there are many everywhere in the Bible).

mikex22
mikex22
Apr 30, 2010
0
#25

"doctrinal matters" are things people picked and chose AFTER they picked and chose which books even MADE UP the Bible (it's obviously well known they found more texts than they put in) Also, how can you look for validity or consistency in a book that constantly exaggerates things and should be a read taken WITH human bias as opposed to what's implied by some that God himself "authored" it through these people when you're taking it to be the "Word of God"? Is it the word of God or a collection of stories? If its historical validity isn't guaranteed, nor its consistency in detail or account, how can you call it to claim for proof of anything (even the spiritual matters it discusses)? In the case "doctrinal" means "God said so", what God says and what God does is inconsistent throughout the Bible. I suppose I can't prove the statement that their experiences have nothing to do with the texts they wrote, and regardless of the validity of the texts, it would seem to hold obvious. It was meant to put forth the opinion that many authors in the Bible simply never experienced the things they've written about.

Math_magician
Math_magician
Apr 30, 2010
0
#26

I said that I would be glad to address any inconsistencies...  Sure, there are trivial ones, but I can't think of any major ones in Genesis.  It just makes me angry when people make assertions about the Bible without giving examples of what they are talking about.  As to the trivial inconsistencies, yes there are many, mostly concerning numbers.  One reason for this is because of the awkward Hebrew numbering system, which makes translation and copying of these numbers difficult.

mikex22
mikex22
Apr 30, 2010
0
#27

alright Math...let's start picking at things. Genesis 2:18-2:23 contradicts the assertation put forth in Genesis 1:27 which insists God created both male and female humans. Not male humans, then animals to make him less lonely, then a female human from the male.

strangequark
strangequark
Apr 30, 2010
0
#28

""doctrinal matters" are things people picked and chose AFTER they picked and chose "-True, but it is not really hard to tell which are the more important passages at all.

"and chose which books even MADE UP the Bible"-Note, however, that other books would not have been included due to the fact that they were interpolations, etc.

"implied by some that God himself "authored" it through these people when you're taking it to be the "Word of God"?"-The important point for me is that the Bible was inspired and not divinely dictated. Math_magician could disagree. But just because some things are exagerations doesn't mean we can validly through out or dismiss the whole text.

"If its historical validity isn't guaranteed, nor its consistency in detail or account"-Many parts of the Bible are historically accurate and largely consistent; for example the Ressurection.

"how can you call it to claim for proof of anything (even the spiritual matters it discusses)? "-I think this is a good case for a religion that would rightly claim to have the authority to interpret such a text; I can only think of one such Church. Math_magician would disagree.

"what God says and what God does is inconsistent throughout the Bible."-I would doubt this, I can answer to specific passages you have concerns about if you wish.

"It was meant to put forth the opinion that many authors in the Bible simply never experienced the things they've written about."-Actually this is usually not true, especially of the New Testament.

kawazaki
kawazaki
Apr 30, 2010
0
#29

http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

strangequark
strangequark
Apr 30, 2010
0
#30

Math_magician and mikex22, go ahead and fight it out. I'll stay tuned and probably pop in on things that appear important for me to adress.

Math_magician
Math_magician
Apr 30, 2010
0
#31

"In the case "doctrinal" means "God said so", what God says and what God does is inconsistent throughout the Bible."  -  Really?  Could you give me an example instead of making unsupported assertions?

As to historical accuracy, I personally believe that any statement the Bible makes about history is true.  Many of the Bible's statements have been called into question over the years and have been eventually vindicated.  For instance, for a long time the mentions of the Hittites in the Bible were looked on as evidence against its historical accuracy because no evidence of such a people had ever been found.  Archeologic evidence of the Hittites was only uncovered toward the end of the 19th century. 

Math_magician
Math_magician
Apr 30, 2010
0
#32

MikeX, the 'disrepancy' you cite is simply a recounting of the sixth day of creation in more detail.  God did make male and female humans on that day, just not both at once.  The disrepancy does have a reasonable explanation, as you can see.  It is not an uncommon literary tactic for a historian to first give an overview, then go back and give more detail on the important points...

mikex22
mikex22
Apr 30, 2010
0
#33

*sighs* what chapter did God promise the Isrealites they'd win a war in that they lost? it's been a while since I've done this song and dance

mikex22
mikex22
Apr 30, 2010
0
#34

here we go...epic promise in Exodus 33:2 and Dueteronomy 7:1

and they've lost wars to the people listed constantly throughout the Bible

strangequark
strangequark
Apr 30, 2010
0
#35

Math_magician, why do you interpret the Bible completely literally? Don't you know it's impossible to not interpret the Bible one way or another? A literal interpretation is an interpretation, and it holds no presedence above other interpretations unless it ought to have been the best interpretation by the Book of Nature. I look to the Book of Nature first to interpret most of the Bible, not the other way around. After all it shouldn't matter to you considering they both ought to be in accord whichever way one looks, correct?

Math_magician, would you be offended if you watched Nonstampcolllector's videos on YT?

Lebeast
Lebeast
Closed: Inactive
Apr 30, 2010
0
#36

Simple; It is not Noah's boat. It is not very very big. When Noah asked the people to join him in the boat, the people said no. Another man saw the rain coming. It was too late for him to join Noah so he made his own little boat. That must be this man's little boat. 

Math_magician
Math_magician
Apr 30, 2010
0
#37

Mikex, those promises were conditional on their obedience to God.  You should probably read the rest of the context of those chapters... 

Math_magician
Math_magician
Apr 30, 2010
0
#38

Strangequark, I do not interpret it completely literally; Revelation is cleary figurative.  However, Genesis is definitely historical and I will treat it as such.  As to said 'Book of Nature', our interpretations of it are constantly changing.  The scientific theories of one generation are replaced by those of the next... We have debated this before and you know my stance on it.

kawazaki
kawazaki
Apr 30, 2010
0
#39

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXV-PRSde60&feature=related

Faith...

kawazaki
kawazaki
Apr 30, 2010
0
#40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYKMcp0lpg&feature=related

looking for the mercies...