USCF Norms

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chessislife79

Hi, I recently just finished a tournament and earned a category 2 norm. I'm wondering why I didn't earn a category 1 norm. My four opponents were rated 1464,2032,1811,and 1877. I scored 3 points out of 4. An 1800 would be expected to score 2 points in this rating field. I scored 3 points. I scored 1 point over what would be expected. Why didn't I earn a category 1 norm? This is just for my understanding. Thank you to anyone who can answer.

Martin_Stahl

There's a very specific norm formula and to get a normal at a level you need to exceed the expectations by a sufficient amount

NoxiousBishop666

yes

SwordofSouls2023
chessislife79 wrote:

Hi, I recently just finished a tournament and earned a category 2 norm. I'm wondering why I didn't earn a category 1 norm. My four opponents were rated 1464,2032,1811,and 1877. I scored 3 points out of 4. An 1800 would be expected to score 2 points in this rating field. I scored 3 points. I scored 1 point over what would be expected. Why didn't I earn a category 1 norm? This is just for my understanding. Thank you to anyone who can answer.

Generally, category 2 performance is denoted by a performance of about 1800.

A category 1 performance is categorized as a performance of about 2000.

There are other factors such as opponent's performance, number of rounds etc.

chessislife79

Yeah, I exceeded the requirement. I read through the norm algorithm. For category 1, you need to score 1 point above what would be expected for an 1800. An 1800 would be expected to score 2 points out of 4. I know because I checked the performance rating for scoring 2/4. It's 1811. I scored 3/4 which is 1 point above.

SwordofSouls2023

It can also be affected by the strength of the opponents.

chessislife79

My performance rating was 2047. I scored 1 point above what would be expected of an 1800.

SwordofSouls2023

It could also be due to the strength of the 1400. I don't know the exact formula, but if the first round opponent is signifcantly worse than the others, which could also impact the norm

chessislife79

For anyone who wants to view the formula, https://www.glicko.net/ratings/titles.pdf.

KGreenGator

The point above I know is key because I had a 1600 performance in my last one but didn't get one because I didn't beat or draw anyone I wasn't expected to beat. and I think the norm is set 200 above where you'd think so 1400 would be a cat 4, 1600 would be a cat 3, 1800 would be a cat 2 and 2000 would be a cat 1 while 2200 would be a candidate master norm but not sure about that

KGreenGator

and might be lower performance ratings to get each norm

fpawn

Did you use opponents' post tournament ratings? Actually, I just used your numbers and calculated C_T(1800) = 1.0 + 0.21 + 0.48625 + 0.40375 = 2.1. Not quite enough.

Power

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that you have to achieve a category title before being eligible for the next category's norms. I've had a few performances that would be eligible for NM norms (which are somehow a thing) but since I wasn't yet USCF CM at the time, they were counted as CM performances. Might want to double check this though

chessislife79
fpawn wrote:

Did you use opponents' post tournament ratings? Actually, I just used your numbers and calculated C_T(1800) = 1.0 + 0.21 + 0.48625 + 0.40375 = 2.1. Not quite enough.

Thank you so much. I think I miscalculated.

chessislife79
Power wrote:

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that you have to achieve a category title before being eligible for the next category's norms. I've had a few performances that would be eligible for NM norms (which are somehow a thing) but since I wasn't yet USCF CM at the time, they were counted as CM performances. Might want to double check this though

I believe that's true for some title norms up until CM norms. One of my friends is 1300 and has a category 4 title, but earned a category 1 norm. He had a really good tournament and had a tournament performance of around 2560. However, starting CM, there's a rating requirement for norms. That's why he didn't earn a higher norm.

pawnjarts

US Chess has a norm calculator spreadsheet which I can't find at the moment. There are versions online like: https://chessintellect.com/tech/uscf-rating-norm-calculator/?score=0&rounds=4&prior_games=50&current_rating=0&ratings=%5B%5D&show_percent_change=false

DavidMertz1

The norms calculation uses a modified formula to calculate expected score. The most important part for your case is this: For any opponent more than 200 points below the norm, your expected score is 1. Playing them is more or less worthless for the norm, because you can't do better than the expected score.

That's essentially why you didn't get the norm. Normally an 1800 would be expected to score about .874 against someone rated 1464. But since the formula instead just sets that to 1, you don't get credit for 0.126 wins above expected. And in this case, that's just enough to put you under the threshold rather than over it.

HrishaanIyer

what norms do i need for a NM title

fpawn
wrote:

what norms do i need for a NM title

Just the 2200 rating.