who wins?
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FM
rychessmaster1
Oct 1, 2018
0
#1
Black
Benjibass wrote:
Black
Yup.
Even by a nominal point count Black is winning
black
Ever come to a conclusion on this one? Lol It is somewhat akin to 7 Knights against 3 Queens, puzzle although usually pawns are added to that mix. The Knights although only worth 21 points win against the 27 points for the 3 Queens usually win. Here one would also think the Hawks would be favored 1....Hh8-f6 already threatens mate already if black moves first.
Since it is relatively easy to implement this variant in my Stockfish fork for fairy chess variants, I just added it to a branch. The position seems to be quite imbalanced regardless of which side is to move, see below. The solution for white to move is surprisingly easy...
For each side to move, the input and output of the command line communication with Fairy-Stockfish is given. Unfortunately, the formatting of the diagrams is messed up after pasting them here, but they just show the position that is given in the initial post. Since the program uses the UCI protocol, the moves are given in coordinate notation.
white to move
setoption name UCI_Variant value dragon-hawk
position fen 7hhh/7hkh/7hhh/10/10/10/D9/KD8 w - - 0 1
d
go depth 5
info string variant dragon-hawk files 10 ranks 8 pocket 0 template fairy startpos 7hhh/7hkh/7hhh/10/10/10/D9/KD8 w - - 0 1
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | h | h | h |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | h | k | h |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | h | h | h |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| D | | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| K | D | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Fen: 7hhh/7hkh/7hhh/10/10/10/D9/KD8 w - - 0 1
Key: E52217F937C8EE16
Checkers:
info depth 1 seldepth 1 multipv 1 score cp 215 nodes 52 nps 52000 tbhits 0 time 1 pv a2i2
info depth 2 seldepth 2 multipv 1 score mate 2 nodes 136 nps 68000 tbhits 0 time 2 pv b1h7 i7h7
info depth 3 seldepth 4 multipv 1 score mate 2 nodes 187 nps 93500 tbhits 0 time 2 pv b1h7 i7h7 a2f7
info depth 4 seldepth 4 multipv 1 score mate 2 nodes 238 nps 119000 tbhits 0 time 2 pv b1h7 i7h7 a2f7
info depth 5 seldepth 4 multipv 1 score mate 2 nodes 289 nps 144500 tbhits 0 time 2 pv b1h7 i7h7 a2f7
bestmove b1h7 ponder i7h7
black to move
setoption name UCI_Variant value dragon-hawk
position fen 7hhh/7hkh/7hhh/10/10/10/D9/KD8 b - - 0 1
d
go depth 15
info string variant dragon-hawk files 10 ranks 8 pocket 0 template fairy startpos 7hhh/7hkh/7hhh/10/10/10/D9/KD8 w - - 0 1
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | h | h | h |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | h | k | h |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | h | h | h |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| D | | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| K | D | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Fen: 7hhh/7hkh/7hhh/10/10/10/D9/KD8 b - - 0 1
Key: E83F3594E380DE47
Checkers:
info depth 1 seldepth 1 multipv 1 score cp -129 nodes 19 nps 9500 tbhits 0 time 2 pv i8f5
info depth 2 seldepth 2 multipv 1 score cp -130 nodes 70 nps 35000 tbhits 0 time 2 pv i8f5 a2d2
info depth 3 seldepth 3 multipv 1 score cp -119 nodes 241 nps 120500 tbhits 0 time 2 pv j7g4 b1i1 i8f5
info depth 4 seldepth 4 multipv 1 score cp -126 nodes 398 nps 199000 tbhits 0 time 2 pv j7g4 a2f2 i8f5 b1i1
info depth 5 seldepth 5 multipv 1 score cp -402 nodes 1921 nps 384200 tbhits 0 time 5 pv j7h5 b1b7 i8f5 a2b1 i6f3 b1f5
info depth 6 seldepth 7 multipv 1 score cp -177 nodes 2347 nps 469400 tbhits 0 time 5 pv j7h5 a2h2 h5e8 b1b7 i8f5 h2i1
info depth 7 seldepth 7 multipv 1 score cp -391 nodes 3306 nps 551000 tbhits 0 time 6 pv j7h5 a2h2 h5e8 h2e2 e8c6 b1b7 i8f5 b7c6
info depth 8 seldepth 9 multipv 1 score cp -537 nodes 7730 nps 644166 tbhits 0 time 12 pv h8f6 a2a7 f6c3 b1c3 i8f5 a7f2 f5i8 c3g7
info depth 9 seldepth 11 multipv 1 score cp -889 nodes 12744 nps 670736 tbhits 0 time 19 pv h8f6 a2a7 i8f5 b1f5 f6d4 f5d4 j7h5 a7g7 h5e8 g7e8
info depth 10 seldepth 13 multipv 1 score cp -995 nodes 15073 nps 717761 tbhits 0 time 21 pv h8f6 a2a7 i8f5 b1f5 f6d4 f5d4 j6h8 a7g7 h8f6 d4f6
info depth 11 seldepth 15 multipv 1 score mate -5 nodes 22009 nps 758931 tbhits 0 time 29 pv i8f5 a2f7 h8f6 b1f5 f6d4 a1a2 d4g7 f7g6 i7i8 g6h7
info depth 12 seldepth 11 multipv 1 score mate -5 nodes 23490 nps 757741 tbhits 0 time 31 pv i8f5 a2f7 h8f6 b1f5 f6d4 a1a2 d4g7 f7g6 i7i8 g6h7
info depth 13 seldepth 11 multipv 1 score mate -5 nodes 24990 nps 780937 tbhits 0 time 32 pv i8f5 a2f7 h8f6 b1f5 f6d4 a1a2 d4g7 f7g6 i7i8 g6h7
info depth 14 seldepth 11 multipv 1 score mate -5 nodes 27212 nps 777485 tbhits 0 time 35 pv i8f5 a2f7 h8f6 b1f5 f6d4 a1a2 d4g7 f7g6 i7i8 g6h7
info depth 15 seldepth 11 multipv 1 score mate -5 nodes 29927 nps 787552 tbhits 0 time 38 pv i8f5 a2f7 h8f6 b1f5 f6d4 a1a2 d4g7 f7g6 i7i8 g6h7
bestmove i8f5 ponder a2f7
So the dragons win quickly regardless of which side has the right to move in the above position.
Note that this doesn't prove that 8 Hawks in general are inferior to two Amazons. It only proves the given position is not tactically quiet. It is conceivable that in a more favorable constellation, where they protect each other better, and attack more squares, the Hawks would win. This seems in fact likely, because an Amazon is worth 12-13 Pawns, and Hawks are certainly worth more than a Bishop (3.5). More like 6-7, actually.
In addition, a multitude of weak pieces often have the upper hand against a few strong pieces, even if the sum of their values predicts otherwise. This is most clearly seen for 3 Queens vs 7 Knights (on 8x8), which, in contrary for the piece value prediction, is almost a certain win for the Knights.
HGMuller escribió:
Note that this doesn't prove that 8 Hawks in general are inferior to two Amazons. It only proves the given position is not tactically quiet. It is conceivable that in a more favorable constellation, where they protect each other better, and attack more squares, the Hawks would win. This seems in fact likely, because an Amazon is worth 12-13 Pawns, and Hawks are certainly worth more than a Bishop (3.5). More like 6-7, actually.
In addition, a multitude of weak pieces often have the upper hand against a few strong pieces, even if the sum of their values predicts otherwise. This is most clearly seen for 3 Queens vs 7 Knights (on 8x8), which, in contrary for the piece value prediction, is almost a certain win for the Knights.
But they are too much
