Why the FFA rating system should change

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liquid-sun

I'm sure this has been brought up already in other posts. Let me just bring it up once more.

I think you will be hard pressed to find any higher rated / skilled player who thinks that the current solo rating system makes for a better game. The existence of a "last place" and a less-punished 2nd / 3rd makes for all kinds of tactical nuances that balances the game. This is because suicidal attacking play or team defection from one player can be punished as an alternative strategy to playing for first. The existence of a "last place" also adds the nuanced tactical "betrayal" decision to attack one's opposite when the opposite has defected, as well as the option to feign teaming, which is another tactic that some use to try and put their opposites in last place.

Maybe getting last place in the teaming meta of a last-place rating system is not as fun for those who don't know how to play well (which is a big reason why I suspect people don't want others to "team"), but the alternative is there being no punishment available for dull play. The current quality of FFA games is terrible due to this.

Furthermore, if you want to take the naturalistic argument, in evolutionary competition, temporary coalitions, defection, punishment of defection, and a "last place" are much more aligned with the "real" FFA environment of nature than winner-takes-all solo.

I think most higher rated or skilled players will agree with my thoughts here. The solo rating system currently used does not add to the game, but takes away from it, bottom line.

At_d0sA_fNLt_Laris

That's why +3 0 0 -3 is terrible. Players don't only team and not care if they'd end up 2nd, but there's another problem...players playing for 3rd place, basically everyone plays just to not get 4th like 90% of the time. Why? Well, the huge difference between 3rd and 4th. This was the worst rating system I know, since I started playing 4 player chess in 2018. The other one I don't like is 2nd being +1 sth like +3 +1 -1 -3 This rating system can be used for lower rated players in which case I totally support and encourage it , but not for high level play and World Championship. World Championship has been rated Solo for a reason, you disliking Solo doesn't change the fact that the World Championship is presented with Solo format for years now and I think it should stay like this. My recommendation was:

Gold Arena <2500  +3 +1 -1 -3 

Platinum Arena 2500-2800 +3 0 -1 -2

Diamond Arena 2800+ +3 -1 -1 -1

 

imo high level play is much more different than low level, actually, it varies so much that it's a completely different game. You don't need to analyze anything, just lookk at the World Championship games. We should separate into 2 or 3 parts, because the high level play can be considered as ranked / competitive play, that's why this separation is needed. My only negative remark on this change is that -1.33 should be changed to -1 and +4 to +3 because I think it's balanced, because I remember back in WTA days you could win 1 game, lose 2 (with -1) and still you gain rating because you won +3 and lost -2...I'm talking about max ranged queue, if you're low 2000, you play only 2000+ So my suggestion, in splitting rating system into 3 categories Classic WTM WTA is due to players learning about temporary cooperation, teaming with opposite and how 3 player stage works.  They can learn slowly and adapt to these rating system changes way more easily than immediately switching to WTA. 

LosChess

I will never understand the need to turn Solo into FFA. A lot of us didn't play Solo for a reason, and now we're not playing FFA for the same reason.

There was no need to kill the best mode 4 PC has to offer.  With all the issues the changes have caused, the game just isn't as fun to play anymore. 

Ferd_Jelly_Roll_Morton

I think the best solution is that you can select any rating system when you make a game but only have one score it effects so you can play solo or FFA or 3,0,0,-3 or anything else you want and it only effects one score.

At_d0sA_fNLt_Laris

@Ferd we already had that when anonymous games were implemented for the first time with addition (another available option) you could also make kings being worth 40 points so you'd see +40 alongside anonymous logo if that option was turned on. It happened at the time when rapid was disregarded and merged with blitz. I remember that you could choose or should I say mark a checkbox and choose between WTM and WTA where I saw WTM being played a lot and also 4|0 +40  anonymous. Even at that time WTM (2nd place was nerfed) where for 2nd you got like 0.5 rating or 0.1 for really high rated players it being close to 0, but players still played it like teams...I think if WTA is not forced, everyone will just choose to play WTM

Darksquareman
At_d0sA_fNLt_Laris wrote:

That's why +3 0 0 -3 is terrible. Players don't only team and not care if they'd end up 2nd, but there's another problem...players playing for 3rd place, basically everyone plays just to not get 4th like 90% of the time. Why? Well, the huge difference between 3rd and 4th. This was the worst rating system I know, since I started playing 4 player chess in 2018. The other one I don't like is 2nd being +1 sth like +3 +1 -1 -3 This rating system can be used for lower rated players in which case I totally support and encourage it , but not for high level play and World Championship. World Championship has been rated Solo for a reason, you disliking Solo doesn't change the fact that the World Championship is presented with Solo format for years now and I think it should stay like this. My recommendation was:

Gold Arena <2500  +3 +1 -1 -3 

Platinum Arena 2500-2800 +3 0 -1 -2

Diamond Arena 2800+ +3 -1 -1 -1

 

imo high level play is much more different than low level, actually, it varies so much that it's a completely different game. You don't need to analyze anything, just lookk at the World Championship games. We should separate into 2 or 3 parts, because the high level play can be considered as ranked / competitive play, that's why this separation is needed. My only negative remark on this change is that -1.33 should be changed to -1 and +4 to +3 because I think it's balanced, because I remember back in WTA days you could win 1 game, lose 2 (with -1) and still you gain rating because you won +3 and lost -2...I'm talking about max ranged queue, if you're low 2000, you play only 2000+ So my suggestion, in splitting rating system into 3 categories Classic WTM WTA is due to players learning about temporary cooperation, teaming with opposite and how 3 player stage works.  They can learn slowly and adapt to these rating system changes way more easily than immediately switching to WTA. 

I like this idea with different rating systems for different skill levels. That’s what I thought the admins were going to do, but instead they made it so that 2100+ was solo, which is just not great. The only reason that I don’t like solo is because people aren’t playing it, and that’s all that matters. 2800+ being solo should fix things but don’t change from +4 to +3.

liquid-sun
At_d0sA_fNLt_Laris wrote:

That's why +3 0 0 -3 is terrible. Players don't only team and not care if they'd end up 2nd, but there's another problem...players playing for 3rd place, basically everyone plays just to not get 4th like 90% of the time. Why? Well, the huge difference between 3rd and 4th. This was the worst rating system I know, since I started playing 4 player chess in 2018. The other one I don't like is 2nd being +1 sth like +3 +1 -1 -3 This rating system can be used for lower rated players in which case I totally support and encourage it , but not for high level play and World Championship. World Championship has been rated Solo for a reason, you disliking Solo doesn't change the fact that the World Championship is presented with Solo format for years now and I think it should stay like this. My recommendation was:

Gold Arena <2500  +3 +1 -1 -3 

Platinum Arena 2500-2800 +3 0 -1 -2

Diamond Arena 2800+ +3 -1 -1 -1

 

imo high level play is much more different than low level, actually, it varies so much that it's a completely different game. You don't need to analyze anything, just lookk at the World Championship games. We should separate into 2 or 3 parts, because the high level play can be considered as ranked / competitive play, that's why this separation is needed. My only negative remark on this change is that -1.33 should be changed to -1 and +4 to +3 because I think it's balanced, because I remember back in WTA days you could win 1 game, lose 2 (with -1) and still you gain rating because you won +3 and lost -2...I'm talking about max ranged queue, if you're low 2000, you play only 2000+ So my suggestion, in splitting rating system into 3 categories Classic WTM WTA is due to players learning about temporary cooperation, teaming with opposite and how 3 player stage works.  They can learn slowly and adapt to these rating system changes way more easily than immediately switching to WTA. 

 

I want to understand your perspective. Can you explain to me specifically why +3 +1 -1 -3 and +3 0 0 -3 is terrible?

If you end up 4th in the 4 player stage, then why should a player playing for 2nd matter? When a player does play for 2nd in the 3 player stage, I switch my strategy to play for 2nd, which has worked well for me. I don't see how playing for 2nd ruins games more than the issues I stated in my OP.

Typewriter44
At_d0sA_fNLt_Laris wrote:

players playing for 3rd place, basically everyone plays just to not get 4th like 90% of the time.

Who is this basically everyone? I don't remember high rated players playing for 3rd in high rated games without getting punished for it. Opposite cooperation is playing for 1st, since it will give you a better 3 player stage. It happens on a much lower scale in Solo (see this game). I blundered in the opening, and my opposite wanted me dead for it, but red and yellow don't have that much of an incentive to give up a point lead/material for a mate. Is a 50 minutes 4 player stage (that only ends in 1 player giving up the balance to get the game started) better than nonexistent playing for 3rd? 

HSCCCB

I'm a high rated player who prefers the current rating system. With that said, I don't think that changing it should go forward without either A.It being more popular or B.the admins have clear reasoning to overide reason A. 

Solo should be much higher if we keep it, 2500+ or even more. 

Until the meta changes, I'm not sure how you can avoid dull games until the four player stage is longer. With that said, if the entire attraction is teams, then why are we playing ffa? Just change it to teams where you can't talk too your opp...then the naming is clearer.

Typewriter44

Caleb, the goal is not teams. The goal is to get to the 3 player stage in a timely manner. If that requires teaming, so be it. But solo does not get anywhere near achieving that.

Darksquareman
HSCCCalebBrown wrote:

I'm a high rated player who prefers the current rating system. With that said, I don't think that changing it should go forward without either A.It being more popular or B.the admins have clear reasoning to overide reason A. 

Solo should be much higher if we keep it, 2500+ or even more. 

Until the meta changes, I'm not sure how you can avoid dull games until the four player stage is longer. With that said, if the entire attraction is teams, then why are we playing ffa? Just change it to teams where you can't talk too your opp...then the naming is clearer.

2800+ seems best to me 

HSCCCB

Other things. 

1. I am almost positive the reason people don't like teaming in ffa is that they mistakenly believe that FFA implies that teaming is illegal. Which we know, it isn't, only influence in chat is illegal but, it's not obvious, but new players, or players who don't read the forums may not know.

2. I am interested in what the refered to "dull play" is. Is it the sort of just moving pieces around in the end of the three player stage (I think this is it), or the psuedo-teaming sort-of passivity in the four player stage? 

3. The third problem is I feel that reasons get tangled up. ex. if the problem you (generic) have is not being able to sustain your rating, then we could also adminly reduce your rating or make solo higher...not neccessarily the fault of solo per se. Another example of this problem is point four

4.I think your problem, liquid, is that you are playing solo with people who just are not good enough to play solo. 2100s should not be in a solo system. 

5.What is the game play difference between ffa and solo? Or, is the problem the style of play, or the rating? (or both!)

ChessMasterGS
Typewriter44 wrote:
At_d0sA_fNLt_Laris wrote:

players playing for 3rd place, basically everyone plays just to not get 4th like 90% of the time.

Who is this basically everyone? I don't remember high rated players playing for 3rd in high rated games without getting punished for it. Opposite cooperation is playing for 1st, since it will give you a better 3 player stage. It happens on a much lower scale in Solo (see this game). I blundered in the opening, and my opposite wanted me dead for it, but red and yellow don't have that much of an incentive to give up a point lead/material for a mate. Is a 50 minutes 4 player stage (that only ends in 1 player giving up the balance to get the game started) better than nonexistent playing for 3rd? 

Not gonna lie Yellow was the true muppet there... 0 teams games and terrible at Solo

LosChess
ChessMasterGS wrote:
Typewriter44 wrote:
At_d0sA_fNLt_Laris wrote:
 

Not gonna lie Yellow was the true muppet there... 0 teams games and terrible at Solo

8.g is the reason I have trust issues 

martinaxo

The current ranking system is the true and real reason why people have not played again.

Some time ago I talked about player categories in FFA and I'm going to bring it here again and we're going to name players by name too, and why?: because as we say in America Latina.
"I am not afraid of success".

0 a 1500 "Apprentice"
1600 a 1900 "Principiante" = Beginner
2000 a 2300 "Gama Baja" = Competent
2400 a 2700 "Gama Media" = Superior
2800 a 3100 "Gama Alta" = Advanced Top Player
3200 a + "Experto" = Gran Maestro = GM FFA

I will name some players: "Gama Media Level"

scotfran20, ChessMasterGS, Mzambe, Pirannita4Cazador, LosChessquire, mfp1962, reynaldope, Holybull, Magicsteph, PepeFumigaciones, liquid-sun, pitifloo, NightLoveRaver, Rasen555, valengoghaze, Tarsmick, JustinD7, tacopower5, whatyousaidno, WDardoW, jomendez1, enriquemaldonado, 16danielinho16, anurag_b, Slayer950, KidBuuJohan, vigneshrocker123, kurtssj, salsaton, wilsonmar1, GoldCoinCollector, ZoDello, michael2304, mgcazares, Indipendenza, KatrinaQueen and me (martinaxo), among others; for me they are all excellent FFA players, and they are all "Gama Media Level".

- They all have their own unique style of play, I have seen none of them reach 2800. And if they have achieved it, the question is, how long have they managed to stay at that level?, Note that I am still talking about the ranking system before this one, which may not have been perfect, but it was accepted and very popular, and appreciated by most.

- The question you ask Typewriter44 Who is this basically everyone?/ is correct, who?, the players from the middle up, play to be first.

- To all these players that I am naming here, none of them play for second place, all of them seek to be competitive and to be first, of that I am sure.

I will name some players: "Gama Alta"

Radon, Illingworth, milrayitasmdqdiaz, Besher, Fiat147, Cha_ChaRealSmooth, carlosgabriel1234, 
MoreMao, LiquidFyre, Riba, Grathieben, hest1805, HSCCCalebBrown, vrdtmr, RicharCG, neoserbian, KillerBishop8888, empty_K3, EyeoftheTiger1204, ccoppola, Typewriter44, 
Darksquareman, LazyImp, jbolea, sumat777, Suneth, rojitto, among others; most of these players have not played in FFA again.

- It is also a reality, that many of them have not managed to reach 3000 elo, And if they have achieved it, how long have they managed to stay at that level?; Note that I am still talking about the ranking system before this one.

- The players that I have seen play with the current system are: neoserbian, hest1805, vrdtmr, Darksquareman, empty_K3, HSCCCalebBrown, MoreMao, LazyImp, rook6431, Typewriter44, and they have not achieved exponential ranking growth either, on the contrary, they have had multiple ups and downs in their rating.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ════ ⋆★⋆ ════ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Those who know me know that FFA is my passion and that my main accomplishments have been achieved here, in this category.

I consider myself a player "Gama Media Level", I am the current champion of omatamix, I managed to reach 2700 elo with the old standard setup and ranking system prior to this. 
Currently I became an administrator, to help solve the tremendous disaster that occurred in the big update that we received. I am actively participating in discussions of the public forums and also in the administrators meetings.

I am working in the field with people who really demand explanations and demand solutions, giving my valuable time, to listen to people and understand them and respond on time too.

I have generated surveys and votes of active people, to achieve greater illumination of the issues that require priority.

@Radon is also very actively helping us resolve this conflict, and his views are highly valid and he represents FFA and high-level players excellently.

I will not rest, until the current ranking system is changed, and I will continue working until I achieve the best optimization.

@Typewriter44 the game that it indicates, I had the opportunity to witness it and I immediately expressed my opinion to @ChessMasterGS:

This is the most boring game I have ever seen in FFA in its entire history!. 100 passing moves, all passive, nobody risks anything, and they don't seem to care.🥱 😴 . clearly in the chat they made it noticeable, at the end of the game.

Anyway, there are still people who continue to enjoy this perfect boredom, (Ranking System SOLO).🥱 😴

https://www.chess.com/variants/4-player-chess/game/26640247/0/1

@ChessMasterGS He would have had his reasons to do what he did at the beginning of the game, I do not judge him, I have always seen him excellent games in the past.

But really I'm collecting games, and there are not necessarily betrayals at the beginning, and that they are alliance style at the beginning, but in the 3 player stage, it becomes something really boring and without risk and extreme passivity, for so little achievement at the end.

 

There are many players who like the Omatamix setup, both mid-level and high-level players, but have not returned because of the current ranking system.

 

What communicates @liquid-sun and @LosChessquire It is really true, we have lost the essence of true FFA, and we will fight until we get it back.

We want the Real FFA and not SOLO undercover!

⚔️Martinaxo

Typewriter44
LosChessquire wrote:
ChessMasterGS wrote:
Typewriter44 wrote:
At_d0sA_fNLt_Laris wrote:
 

Not gonna lie Yellow was the true muppet there... 0 teams games and terrible at Solo

8.g is the reason I have trust issues 

To be fair, I did just blunder my bishop. I don't think it was strategically correct for green to attack me, but it is justifiable. Green also made some mistakes in the opening (passive and completely useless Nl11 instead of the forcing/potentially winning Bl7), so I also don't blame red for not being aggressive towards me and just letting us duke it out in the (very very long) 4 player stage.

HSCCCB

@martinaxo if this the problem: a boring 3 player stage. The only way, in my mind is to create the game so that the position is complex at the end of the four stage. I'm not sure how the rating system can effect that. 

martinaxo
HSCCCalebBrown escribió:

Other things. 

1. I am almost positive the reason people don't like teaming in ffa is that they mistakenly believe that FFA implies that teaming is illegal. Which we know, it isn't, only influence in chat is illegal but, it's not obvious, but new players, or players who don't read the forums may not know.

2. I am interested in what the refered to "dull play" is. Is it the sort of just moving pieces around in the end of the three player stage (I think this is it), or the psuedo-teaming sort-of passivity in the four player stage? 

3. The third problem is I feel that reasons get tangled up. ex. if the problem you (generic) have is not being able to sustain your rating, then we could also adminly reduce your rating or make solo higher...not neccessarily the fault of solo per se. Another example of this problem is point four

4.I think your problem, liquid, is that you are playing solo with people who just are not good enough to play solo. 2100s should not be in a solo system. 

5.What is the game play difference between ffa and solo? Or, is the problem the style of play, or the rating? (or both!)


Caleb There is no doubt that you have too many unknowns, and it shows in your queries in this forum, you seem not to be aware, or not aware of all the events. I consider it very important to start by learning about all the discussions of previous forums that we have all had here. It is very important that you please read them and find out as soon as possible.

This will help us so that you have your own opinion and you can express it and share it with all of us, regardless of whether we agree or not, with what you want to express, but the important thing is that you express your own opinion.

At the moment I can answer this last query: " I'm not sure how the rating system can effect that"/ 

The ranking system is directly related to your game plan.

-There is an initial predisposition, how to approach the game, and here many players think differently. some more daring, others more analytical, and others really positional, others passive, etc. All these nuances are first given to you by the configured ranking system.

- A posteriori and/or immediately There is an analysis of which are the first movements of my opposite, and then I will decide if it is really convenient for me to make an alliance with him or not.

-How much am I willing to risk in my starting position for a 4 player battle? What opening should I do?

Here I give you only some examples, but without a doubt the players ask themselves more questions than these, at the beginning of the game.

In short, all these initial evaluations are later manifested in the game.

But please Caleb, give us your objective vision of the matter without fear.




liquid-sun

I think @martinaxo makes the point of games being boring in the 3 player stage not due to complexity of the position, @HSCCCalebBrown , but due to players making dull moves given the position. No matter how you cut it, good chess moves require some level of risk to progress. Anyone can sit around and wait for others to make mistakes. But it takes true skill to play sharp forcing moves that also make you more vulnerable to others. Any level of progress in any field of life requires some level of risk to failure. The current system takes away some of our capacity to make such risks.

liquid-sun
Typewriter44 wrote:
At_d0sA_fNLt_Laris wrote:

players playing for 3rd place, basically everyone plays just to not get 4th like 90% of the time.

Who is this basically everyone? I don't remember high rated players playing for 3rd in high rated games without getting punished for it. Opposite cooperation is playing for 1st, since it will give you a better 3 player stage. It happens on a much lower scale in Solo (see this game). I blundered in the opening, and my opposite wanted me dead for it, but red and yellow don't have that much of an incentive to give up a point lead/material for a mate. Is a 50 minutes 4 player stage (that only ends in 1 player giving up the balance to get the game started) better than nonexistent playing for 3rd? 

 

Case in point, you didn't really "blunder" in this opening if everyone plays the sharpest line.

[GameNr "26640247"]
[TimeControl "1+7"]
[Variant "FFA"]
[RuleVariants "Anonymous DeadKingWalking EnPassant PromoteTo=D"]
[StartFen4 "4PC"]
[Red "MoreMao"]
[RedElo "2789"]
[Blue "Typewriter44"]
[BlueElo "2770"]
[Yellow "reinismx"]
[YellowElo "2535"]
[Green "ChessMasterGS"]
[GreenElo "2501"]
[Result "MoreMao: 50 - Typewriter44: 83 - reinismx: 68 - ChessMasterGS: 18"]
[Termination "Checkmate"]
[Site "www.chess.com/variants/4-player-chess/game/26640247"]
[Date "Sat May 07 2022 19:22:17 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time)"]
[CurrentMove "38"]

1. h2-h3 .. b7-c7 .. e13-e12 .. m6-l6
2. f2-f3 .. b9-c9 .. k13-k11 .. m8-l8
3. Ne1-d3 .. b4-d4 .. Nj14-i12 .. Nn10-l11
4. Qg1-h2 .. Qa8-d5 .. Ne14-f12 .. Bn9-l7
5. Nj1-i3 .. Ba6xh13+ .. Qh14xBh13 .. Bl7xf13+
6. Nd3-c5 .. Qd5xd13 .. Kg14-h14 .. Bf13-g12
7. Qh2xc7+ .. b8xQc7 .. Rd14xQd13 .. Bg12xQh13
8. Nc5xRa4 .. Na10-c11 .. Bi14xBh13 .. Qn7-m6
9. k2-k4 .. Nc11xRd13 .. g13-g12 .. Qm6-j9
10. Rk1-k3 .. Nd13xNf12