Why the FFA rating system should change

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Avatar of empty_K3
Indipendenza hat geschrieben:

I believe that:

a) there is NO ideal system.

b) players should be encouraged to play to WIN, i.e. to be 1st.

c) it's easy to get 4th sometimes despite of having played very correctly, just because you have an incompetent player as opp.

d) the difference between 3rd and 4th is not relevant, and shouldn't exist really.

e) it is NOT stupid to have different systems for different layers. Because contrary to 2p classical chess, here there is a group dynamic and a lot of psychology (like in poker) and the experience of the 4 players is critical. Therefore I personally do like the current system (but maybe it should be more Solo from a significantly higher level than now, probably from 2200/2300).

Another way to address that is to consider that Top 100 players are the world elite at any given moment, and therefore it could be for instance FFA when there are 0 or 1 player like this, and in case there are 2, 3 or 4 VIPs, it becomes automatically Solo. (Very different from the old WTA system from some level, where the average ELO was taken into account). 

 

Otherwise, +4 -1 -1.5 -1.5 could be interesting maybe.

 

a) and e) The fact that there is no ideal system is correlating with the fact that the game changes as the elo get higher. 

b) totally agree

c) and d) Sometimes you get 4th and couldn't do much. That is true. Still, I think there is a huge difference between 3rd and 4th. Because the 3-player-stage is an entirely different game than the 4-players-stage. Reaching this stage makes a big difference. I believe the difference between 3rd and 2nd is basically non-existing. 

 

We all agree that the game is about winning. So the solo rating is the most straightforward:
1 winner, 3 losers
But to get to win a game is a process:
1. You manage not to get mated first and come to the 3-player-stage. (e.g. by mating another player)
2. You create a winning heads up (e.g. by a 20+ point lead)
3.  You win the heads up (e.g. by claim win)
So every new step is an achievement and should be rewarded. Especially in low elo.

Therefore the rating system shifting from FFA +3 +1 -1 -3 to Solo +3 -1 -1 -1 just makes sense.

But I think that true solo where there is really no difference between  2nd and 4th does not start before world-championship-level. Therefore I think the pure solo rating should probably start with 2800 elo.

At 2500 elo it should probably still be around +3 0 -1 -2

 

TLDR: I agree with the rating system shifting from FFA to solo as the elo becomes higher, but pure solo should not start before 2800 elo.

Avatar of empty_K3

I've just analyzed how the rating would look like, if we just go linear from FFA at 1500 elo (and below) to solo at 3000 elo (and above).

Those are the checkmarks:
1500 elo +3  +1   -1   -3
1875 elo +3 +0,5 -1 -2,5
2250 elo +3    0   -1   -2
2625 elo +3 -0,5  -1 -1,5
3000 elo +3   -1   -1   -1

Of course the numbers can be scaled by a factor so that the sum of rating change stays the same.

I think we are really on the right track with the rating system shifting from FFA to Solo, but I think it has to be adjusted. I think setting pure solo on 2800 or even on 3000 like in this example would help a lot.

Avatar of Indipendenza

"Still, I think there is a huge difference between 3rd and 4th. Because the 3-player-stage is an entirely different game than the 4-players-stage. Reaching this stage makes a big difference." :

EMPTY, I agree with you, but hat you wrote mainly concerns high level games you're used to. I mean, in lower level games it happens plenty of time that you're 4th despite of not having been the 1st to be eliminated. (Because when the sides are not very good happy.png, sometimes the agony of the 1st loser is long enough to give him let's say 15-20 pts as he defends and eats; whereas his opp sometimes is passive and eventually has only 8-14 pts and finishes 4th).

Also, it's quite easy to be 4th sometimes just because you have a total idiot in front who takes active part in your elimination. Or just someone who doesn't like you and decides to kill you (finishing 2nd in a Solo game). Just a fresh example: https://www.chess.com/variants/4-player-chess/game/26905643/0/4. The guy is 2557 Rapid FFA, so he was pretty aware of what he was doing making me 4th (and himself 2nd in a Solo). Do you find it is fair to have 1.63 losses in such a case?... And at much lower levels that you and me never play (around 1600/1900 pts for instance) you have plenty of cases where there is a 3 vs. 1 from start. You may well be 3000 pts, you just can't but finish 4th.

So I still believe that to have a big punishment for the 4th place doesn't make sense: YES in many cases you're 4th just because you played very badly; BUT in far too many cases it's just fortuitous; and in addition it creates a very bad incentive: when players (who estimate that their chances to win have become low) do not play for 1st anymore, but play to avoid being 4th, and it lowers the overall quality of the game clearly and ruins the game for the other players quite often.

Avatar of Indipendenza
empty_K3 wrote:

I've just analyzed how the rating would look like, if we just go linear from FFA at 1500 elo (and below) to solo at 3000 elo (and above).

Those are the checkmarks:
1500 elo +3  +1   -1   -3
1875 elo +3 +0,5 -1 -2,5
2250 elo +3    0   -1   -2
2625 elo +3 -0,5  -1 -1,5
3000 elo +3   -1   -1   -1

Of course the numbers can be scaled by a factor so that the sum of rating change stays the same.

I think we are really on the right track with the rating system shifting from FFA to Solo, but I think it has to be adjusted. I think setting pure solo on 2800 or even on 3000 like in this example would help a lot.

 

I agree 99%. The 1% of the difference happy.png is that I think the levels you put are too high. It should be pure Solo from 2500 I believe.

Another solution is to be subtle and take as current threshold the level of the 100th player for instance. (Currently about 2550). I.e. it will still be morphing like now from 3 1 -1 -3 (1500 ELO) to 3 -1 -1 -1 (the dynamic level defined as 100th player ELO), with the formula taking into account the average ELO of the board (and ideally being logarithmic rather than linear because of course the level of play doesn't increase in the linear proportion). I can define such a formula easily. 

Avatar of Typewriter44

The 100th player does not understand how to play solo. Often, the 10th player doesn't understand how to play solo.

Solo just doesn't work except at the championship level.

Avatar of Darksquareman

Empty doesn't seem to want to play solo.

Avatar of martinaxo

Let's continue this discussion in this new tournament: "Modern FFA"
Status Beta





the following will be analyzed:

- Ranking System
- New Position Initial king
- Coronation
- Checkmate 10 points



Let´s Go!

Avatar of empty_K3
Darksquareman hat geschrieben:

Empty doesn't seem to want to play solo.

Well, I want to play solo. But as @Typewriter44 said, Solo only exists on a championship level.

That's why I love the W4PCC so much because those are mostly the only Solo games I can play all year.