Antique chess sets - where to start?

10/10 thread

Assuming the consent of Mike Klem, here is a message from him about the upcoming meeting of Chess Collectors International in St. Louis. The webinar promises some great insights into outstanding collections. And the auction is awesome! Fantastic sets that are offered there. An incredible opportunity for all collector friends in the USA and Canada. @kimk10 this is a perfect opportunity not only to acquire an antique set but also to learn a lot about them. Many attractive sets on offer with pictures and description. Check it out!

Here is Mike's message:

Thank you so much for the heads up!

They mention "estimated price" for each lot - how accurate are those estimates?

Estimates by auctioneers are not very accurate. I assume that most items will sell for prices that are a good deal higher than the estimate, whereas others will stay below the estimate. The estimates are more of a minimum expectation of the auctioneer, i.e. he will chose the minimum bid accordingly and will not fall below 70% of the estimate, if at all.

Any opinion about the following 2 sets and their value:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/233688056290?ul_noapp=true

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/VINTAGE-ANTIQUE-ASIAN-FOLD-UP-WOODEN-CASE-CHESS-SET-HAND-CARVED-STONE-WOOD/184392537731?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2763.l2648

I cannot open the first link, but the description of the second one looks dubious to me. I have never seen a combination of stone and wood. In fact, these sets were usually made of elephant ivory in the 1960's and 1970's. If this were the case, you would not be able to export the item to Canada, as the seller is located in the US. At least you would run a high risk that US customs is not buying the stone/wood story. Apart from that, sets like this are not really a starting point for an antiques collection.

They removed the first one for some reason.

@kimk10 if I were you I would start off with a set like this and would take my collection from there.

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/barleycorn-chess-set-german-probably-nuremburg-bo-41-c-ae444ba929

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/selenus-bone-set-86-c-c454c39a44

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/antique-english-barleycorn-chessmen-height-of-tal-104-c-22748c5932

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/19th-cent-red-white-barleycorn-style-set-bone-134-c-e9645f093a

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/early-1800s-bone-with-fitted-box-board-153-c-1ad453eb08

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/red-white-barleycorn-bone-set-196-c-12742019e2

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/early-1900s-bone-chess-set-2-875-224-c-ca24c5f876

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/bone-chess-set-circa-mid-1800s-3-5-226-c-3924a66a26

That's why I said the upcoming CCI auction is a great opportunity!

@EfimLG47 thank you so much, those are great suggestions!

I'm still not sure how those auctions work logistically. I understand they don't offer in house shipping, so you need to find someone to ship? Also, they seem very slow to respond. I registered 2 days ago, still pending approval. Also sent them 2 messages regarding one of their sets, no response. ebay seems so much easier. 

So if I go back to one of my first posts,sts,  Type I Morphy Barleycorn at Frank site which you said is priced too high at $595. How does it compare to:

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/barleycorn-chess-set-german-probably-nuremburg-bo-41-c-ae444ba929 $75-150 estimate

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/antique-english-barleycorn-chessmen-height-of-tal-104-c-22748c5932 $200-300 estimate

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/19th-cent-red-white-barleycorn-style-set-bone-134-c-e9645f093a $350-650 estimate

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/red-white-barleycorn-bone-set-196-c-12742019e2 $850-1,250 estimate

The lots have basically no description, so for a non expert like myself, it's very confusing to understand why those sets that are the same style and look pretty similar to me have such big price differences. And how do I even know that I'm getting a good deal?

Logistically it is as you said. If the auctioneer does not offer shipping you need to find someone who does it for you. I don't know about the US, but in the UK there are specialist services available from Mailboxes Etc., Pack & Send and some more. Usually the auctioneers can give you contact details of people they work with. You send them details of the lot and they will provide a shipping quote for you. The auctioneer itself is easy. He will add the buyer premium and VAT to the hammer price and will send you an invoice. Once this is paid, the lot is released and can be picked up.

Regarding reaction time, this is really depending on the auctioneer. Usually they are extremely busy before an auction, so sometimes you are approved on the day of the auction. I usually send them a reminder a day before and it never happened that I was not approved.

Thank you.

Shipping can provide nasty surprises. I shipped recently from https://www.mastersofgames.com/ to Canada and the shipping was £27, but when I asked for a quote from a third party provided by saleroom, they quoted £180! Hopefully it's better from US to Canada.

Expectations are very different. The set offered by Frank is overpriced. If it were not, it would have sold a long time ago. But antique chess sets are not really items for which a real market price exists, which would allow for a serious comparison. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen almost identical sets sell for 500 in one auction and for 5,000 in another. But as a rule of thumb you can assume that commercial sellers like Frank Camaratta, Luke Honey, Tim Millard etc. have prices on the upper end of the price range. Of course, they want to earn some money with that. Auctioneers act on comission. Of course, the higher the hammer price, the higher the premium for them, but in the end they do not really care if a set sells for a couple of hundred more or less. Their estimates are not to be taken too serious, as I mentioned before. Today, I saw a (seriously) damaged set sell for 950£ in a UK auction. The estimate was 20-40£. Due to bids placed before the auction bidding started at 640£. See what I mean?

Apart from that, check the links I provided and try to figure out for yourself, where the differences between the sets are. I admit, there is not a lot of information, but you can take a look at the pictures provided. Check some basics. Is the set complete or are there any pieces missing? Do the pieces look as if they all belong to the same set or can you identify pieces that do not fit and were probably replaced? Are there damages to the pieces? If yes, are they significant or could they be repaired? What is the overall condition? Any fading to the stained pieces? How do the sets compare in terms of carving skill, i.e. did one set apparently require more work than the other? Etc. etc. If you start with that, you will soon identify differences, which have an impact on the price calculation.

Most of the sets I mentioned in my post above are so called Barleycorn sets. Read this article. It will give you a lot of background on these sets. http://anonymouschesscollector.blogspot.com/2007/11/barleycorn-sets.html

After reading it, you will be in a position to determine that the only true Barleycorn sets are this one https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/bone-chess-set-circa-mid-1800s-3-5-226-c-3924a66a26, because it shows the barleycorn / leaf pattern on the barrel, and probably this one https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/barleycorn-chess-set-german-probably-nuremburg-bo-41-c-ae444ba929, because it also shows some (acanthus) leaves hanging down, which is close enough (actually my personal favorite of the links I gave you and moderately priced it seems). On the other hand, this one https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/red-white-barleycorn-bone-set-196-c-12742019e2 is not a true Barleycorn, because it does not show the typical pattern (this type is also often referred to as Rope Barleycorn), so it is probably a bit overpriced with a minimum bid of 425 US$, but let's see. Neither is Frank's set a true Barleycorn set. In fact, there is nothing really special about the set. It has simple ropes on the kings and queens, a rather uninspring kings crown, oval shaped queens heads, Nuremberg knights and simple rooks (the other one at least has flags on top of the rooks, with one red flag broken, however, it seems). I would personally not be willing to pay 595 US$ for it, but that is a personal opinion only. Frank has a lot of experience and if he thinks this is a fair price, who I am to disagree?

Thank you so much, this is very helpful!

Frank has another Barleycorn set - https://chessantiques.com/product/type-ii-english-barleycorn-chessmen-2/ priced at $695 which personally I like much more.

On the other hand, this Coca-Cola Set by The Franklin Mint is priced at $695, and I was able to buy it for $400. The Civil War Set by The Franklin Mint is priced at $395, I got it for $230 on ebay and probably could be bought even for less. So I'm not sure how realistic his prices are, and as you mentioned, many items are not sold for a long time. I'm not sure how much flexibility he has in his prices. But at least when buying from him, there are no surprises like crazy shipping costs or "buyer premium".

Well, it's a completely different style obviously, I just gave those sets as examples to how overpriced his priced are. Obviously I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate his prices for the antique sets, but for Franklin Mint, we are talking about the same products that you can find elsewhere for 40%+ less. So maybe the same it true for his antique sets? 

@sound67 There is a Fabergé set by Franklin Mint, you know...

And in fact, there is a "real" Fabergé set in the Dr. George Dean collection, which belongs to the most exclusive and expensive sets in the world.

Personally I think it's gorgeous, I'm actually looking for this set. But again, a completely different style, obviously not comparable in any way to the antique sets discussed here.

@efimlg47 the Barleycorn sets in your collection are truly gorgeous, and I see what you mean by true Barleycorn.

https://www.chess-collection.de/newpage124

https://www.chess-collection.de/newpage8

Back when I was collecting I did want the Great Crusaders set which I thought of partly as something like the Wedgwood bisque set but in my price range. The pieces are pretty precarious, however. I had one in my possession for a short time and returned it due to a ton of undeclared damages, pieces had been broken and glued. Thin bases combined with heavy pieces...  it's a very pretty set IMO but does seem kind of made to be broken.