How much am I missing using only free software?

Pentagram was asking me about Kasparov's Garrybase.  Here are the links:

Mig on Garrybase

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mig23.pdf

Steve Lopez on Garrybase

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2340

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2341

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2342

Grandpatzer on Garrybase

http://grandpatzerchess.blogspot.com/2007/10/using-chessbases-repertoire-database.html

wow. I would rather give up chess than do this with either chessbase or scid! --

The opening report exists with almost exact functionality as chessbase. What scid does not have is opening keys for critical positions - but it has bookmarks which can be categorized.As well as customizable flags for each game.

I personally dont use the repertoire editor though it could be used for searches.

Anyway - the procedure that Kasparov describes can be done just as easily with scid. I noticed much of it involved manual entering of moves- which is probably the best way to study if you really have to.  The critical positions can be marked with categorized bookmarks in scid..e.g . Ruy Lopez (folder) - Exchange Or with customized flags.  For example - bare bones opeing db I have with assorted lines has a flag "french" which I can find very easily.

I think this topic moves into "How much should I study for chess" rather than about free software. For those who prefer to labor at opening lines in such an exhaustive manner , I would imagine buying chessbase is a good investment but for others scid seems more than sufficient.

I wonder how these study habits would have to change when or if chess960 replaces chess!

scid also doesn't have the demonstration of plans and doesn't group games according to plans, it just gives played lines in ECO format. Anyhow, scid may well mature and in 3-4 yrs it may consist a solid alternative to CB.

To tell you the truth, if I ever come across a feature which I miss in SCID, I would much rather make a "feature request" to the folks developping SCID than give money to a corporation whose goal - by definition - is to get as much of my money as possible (preferably by locking me in their proprietary dataformats forever). As for the money thereby saved, I would gladly donate it to the SCID project: this way I help the good guys and protect my freedoms .

I have a question for chessbase users:

How do you search a database of games between a date filter i.e between jan 1st 2009 and july 31 2009. It seems you could only search by year!

If there is no way of doing this this is a basic feature that scid has that chessbase lacks despite its price.

I was about to conclude that chesbase was superior to scid in search features because of sorting, and additional search criteria. (You could sort in scid but only by copying to clipbase first  and there are some advanced search criteria like search for stalemate , manoveures missing in scid.) But the date range search is a very basic search I do on my own or other dbs in scid almost always!

Search by date is a very invaluable feature. It is also the most fundamental search criteria for any database not just a chess database. Say I want to seach for the games I played two weeks ago or a few months agao ..Or just one day ..I dont remember theexact  position or even the opening just the day i played it. Its so easy to find such a game in scid but in chessbase - what use is the year for this case?!!

This is a complete dealbreaker for me .this means the full version is still crippled in that I cannot do a basic search of my own game collection in it.

Before I used scid, I used rebel decade which is lacking in many features but still had search by date. I used chess db software mainly to organize my own collection of games and date criteria search is crucial for me.

I mean, wow, if i had dished out the money to buy chessbase, i would feel cheated!

*Note that in addition to header search - scid has material /pattern search, and search current board position.

Chessbase sorts databases by date, so that you don't need to run searches.  Just open up the database, and scroll to the date you want.  That's one of things I find inconvenient about SCID: you have to set up a search in order to do things that are available on the Chessbase game lists automatically.

Anyone who works for chessbase , I suggest they put it in for the next version. Your solution is a waste of my time. Why would I want to scroll through a long list of games, when i can search by date far quicker? 

once you've figured out scid, it takes about the same time to do most tasks

-- be more specific what is available on the games list that cannot be done on scid?

Sorting can be done in two clicks instead of one - copy to clipbase then - sort by date or what ever you please.

And as an exercise - try this : twic db all games between mar2009 to present. Sort by ELO, result.

SCID does it faster than chessbase.

I am trying to ascertain/compare the features here but it seems that there are some who just believe chessbase does everything well - it does not.

I already mentioned the reference pane and Find Novelty function.  From any position in a game window, click on Reference, and up pops a list of of the different candidate moves, the top players who play each line, and a list of games sortable by white elo, black elo, date.  The "Find novelty" feature gives you a similar list sorted by similarity to the current game showing the continuation for each all in one panel.  No search, just one click.

Listen, I never once mentioned that scid is open source and therefore is superior. I think you and others like you are fundamentalists in that sense - You refuse to discuss openly the features/flaws in different software.

Do you work for chessbase? Maybe you do. But I certainly am not associated with scid.

You say different needs/different programs -you're right there but basic functionality is important for a lot of chess fans esp those starting out.

I have no interest in Anand-Kramnik 2008 or whatever date.. But I am interested in the game I played last week tuesday, that i did not bother to analyze or flag it and just imported  in with the rest. How will i search for that? Maybe you dont care about that but i do.

I am trying to be honest, actually taking the time to use scid and chessbase 10 side by side. Yes, i have cb10 (and its basically free the way i got it) . I am trying to figure out how different people use software. I am more interested in the "training", study methods. So if i am a fundamentalist its only that i believe too much "study" is unnecessary - nothing to do with open source.

And another "problem" just popped up in chessbase. The auto update gets the latest games - an advantage but I want all the games in pearl spring but I get 0 result because I need to capitalize P. Yet chessbase does not work in linux - I am using windows - I dont pay attention to capitalization. I search scid version of twic database with" pearl" shows me results right away.

As far as open source software goes, normally its the other way around. Normally when people complain about lacking features they say well its free sofware do this etc.

I would certainly like scid to have better interface and quicker sorting but how could a software i pay for not have a decent search feature? This is mind boggling and outrageous!  Just because Kasparov uses it doesn't mean somebody trying to store/search their own games should.

And to respond to "ring magician"

>>I already mentioned the reference pane and Find Novelty function.  From any position in a game window, click on Reference, and up pops a list of of the different candidate moves, the top players who play each line, and a list of games sortable by white elo, black elo, date. >>

This is available in once click in scid too as "tree  window". The differences are in the way the info is presented. I have compared both. This boils down to I like chessbase interface better since they are both  1 click. 

Initially, I was responding to the OP which is "how much you are missing" and to someone who was moving from scid to chessbase. Since I have chessbase as well I will continue to point out things that it lacks - I believe others have already made it clear what scid lacks though some of this missing functionality is "hidden". 

And I am thankful for your - and everybody else's - explanations.  I think that I am probably the only "free software fanatic" here and while I would not use a proprietary application on principle, I was sincerely interested in hearing what my choice would entail in terms of missing capabilities.  After all - if folks are paying hundreds of dollars and I am curious to see what they get for their money.  Reading through this thread, I get the feeling that they don't get much at all, but that was not something I knew when I made my first post (as I said, I never used CA or CB)

not much ozzie, and i'm guessing your having more fun too :)

I haven't tried this, but I stumbled onto it today:  a program from ChessOK called Chess Endgame Training.

http://chessok.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_3_25&products_id=117

It sounds like it might be what you are looking for.

shameless bump!

I started using "ChessBase Light 2009 Premium" and I thought of recording my experience so far.

Overall it is much more convenient than what I was using before, it has richer functionality and I am more than happy with my purchase.

"+"es

* Very detailed opening reports. Highlights thematic plans etc instead of just listing what has been played in NCO format.

* The annotation environment is simply fantastic, it is possible to link even multimedia files.

* Can create custom keys, on top of tagging with the very useful "critical position", medals etc. This helps both in opening preparation and in creating indices for typical middlegame & endgame positions. E.g. I soon plan to make keys for themes like pawn majorities, isolani, minority attack, liquidation etc and attach annotated games to these, whenever I want to quickly go through a scheme.

* Repertoire database, very important feature imho and seems much simpler than making a Garrybase. The repertoire database feature is so easy to use that it allows to literaly create a repertoire reference within one afternoon.

* very easy to maintain TWIC, it is a 1-click process.

* online database access, in fact I find this so useful that I don't bother with twic anymore. btw the online db is very very fast.

* Can use the reference pane selectively.

* access Chessbase DVDs, ebooks & training software.

* The interface is very user friendly and allot less bugy than anything else I've used.

* can publish all your work into html format, e.g. I plan to use a private website to upload everything there, so that I can do opening preparation & middlegame study from smartphones.

* can login directly to playchess!

* very fast software, and I run it on very low end hardware, a 200 quid netbook.

* Documentation: Mig's & Lopez's tutorials are very good and easy to find, very detailed, and they cover more or less anything someone would want to do with a database application.

* cost is really low, 50 euros.

"-"es

* If you want to use Aquarium to annotate your games, you have to move out of Chessbase format and back in, of course adding the game again & removing duplicate games is always possible but as ease of use is my top priority, I'll stick with CB interface, even though I'd love to give Aquarium a try.

 Overall, it is a complete database program, not just a program which opens and closes games packed together, it can assist in opening preparation - organize an opening repertoire, keeping commentary on your games, watching current games, categorize thematic games according to pawn structure, material imbalances etc. and publish all that.

 What I would like to see in the future is either interactive analysis support or more interoperability with software that supports it, like Aquarium.  Btw interactive analysis definately sounds interesting but I have never actually done that, as I will not move out of the Chessbase "ecosystem", can someone who uses it say more on that?

 I don't have the Fritz interface, only CB light, I assume they are quite similar, if not, my comments will be out of context and feel free to ignore them.

 I would like to see features which exist in competitive programs, like interactive analysis, storing analysis trees etc. I like CBL allot but since chessbase uses a closed format, it needs to add these features to CB products because the closed format discourages users to use e.g. CBL and a competitive program cooperatively.

It is possible to create opening books (ctg) in Chessbase, but it strikes me that you need the Fritz GUI to create endgame and theme keys.  You can also use Fritz to calculate Elo ratings for sets of games, and to play timed games against an engine, features that Chessbase does not have.

Comparison between Chessbase and scid

For those wondering about scid + features here is the equivalent plus more:

Very detailed opening reports.

-- just as good in scid.. I compared them side to side with chessbase 10 --

* The annotation environment is simply fantastic, it is possible to link even multimedia files.  

--scid  no multimedia but adequate annotation including adding marks, arrows etc.

* Can create custom keys, on top of tagging with the very useful "critical position", medals etc. This helps both in opening preparation and in creating indices for typical middlegame & endgame positions. E.g. I soon plan to make keys for themes like pawn majorities, isolani, minority attack, liquidation etc and attach annotated games to these, whenever I want to quickly go through a scheme.

Just as good in scid.. 6 custom flags in addition to the existing flags which can be used for any purposes.Major theme flags already exist. I do multiple critical positions in a single game. I just mark it with a comment or a mark. VERY easy to navigate within the game to any critical position.

* Repertoire database, very important feature imho and seems much simpler than making a Garrybase. The repertoire database feature is so easy to use that it allows to literaly create a repertoire reference within one afternoon.

Same in scid -- but one must get a good reference db first. Actually making a good reportoire db requires some amount of manual work .. in both softwares.

* very easy to maintain TWIC, it is a 1-click process.

 NOT In scid but might be soon since the fork app chess db already has it.

* online database access, in fact I find this so useful that I don't bother with twic anymore. btw the online db is very very fast.

 Online db access depends on internet speed - it should be fast.. However, the local db in chessbase is slower than the equivalent in scid.

* Can use the reference pane selectively.

Tree window in scid.

can publish all your work into html format, e.g. I plan to use a private website to upload everything there, so that I can do opening preparation & middlegame study from smartphones.

Can be done in scid - Tools export to html/javascript/pgn/latex..

The one thing that chessbase 10 does is online db access and it provides a big database (cb 2009 does not but its identical otherwise). The interface is also a bit more intuitive.

However, it lacks date search (a must for me since this is how i find games) and no auto annotate. 2 key features i use because i DONT spend much time on studying chess and when I do I have to either find something from some date back and have some blunder check automatically done. 

When I do get time, i mark my existing games with app. flags and critical positions with comments , arrows etc.  I also concentrate more on middle game and endings on openings .

Lastly, I have imported every chesss.com puzzle of the day into a scid db starting from a few months back. If the db is stored int the bases folder,. you can run Play>>Training>>Tacics.. And you get to redo the puzzles as a sort of tactics trainer.

My intial requirements for db software was ext. simple. I just needed to store my games and search on them...thats it. But as i use software more ... scid still has every feature i need. 

I am a bit confounded though how anyone can justify having a db and not being able to do a date search.  SCID does it -- chessbase cannot. Sometimes I like to search my personal coll and find games during certain months -- when I am active there are tons of games -- i cannot scroll through a long list - i Have to search it by date..

I am curious though for beginning players aren't there other commercial /free chess software that is better ..with regards to training materials.

The big difference is that in Chessbase you can create keys on top of medals/flags, I find this together with the repertoire features to be the main reasons I like CB much more.

The repertoire in CB can be created much faster than in SCID, while you browse your games & GM games, you just right click a position and add it to the repertoire database, simpler, faster and easier. Also, when newer games are played in your repertoire lines, again just a simple right click can append a game as a sub-variation. SCID has no inherent repertoire support, of course you can just add games onto a db as you can just print games and put them in a dossier but the main reason I want to use DB software is to organize my repertoire in a fast, efficient & concise manner.

Regarding speed, I find CB faster than SCID but SCID's speed is not bad either.

SCIDs opening report also falls short, CB calculates typical manoeuvres/plans, links key games to them and mentions which grandmaster played each plan. SCID just provides an NCO-like database dump.

The tree window is quite primitive in comparison to the reference pane.

Another very important CB feature, is when you try to build a "monster DB" by merging different DBs, there, the "cannibalize" feature is simply amazing.

Regarding date search, I never wanted to use it, so it is a feature I don't care about much. For auto-annotate, you can buy the Fritz interface, which has other stuff as well like calculation training etc, now that Fritz 12 is out, I may buy Fritz 11 as I have seen a couple of good offers.

In short, the ability to create custom keys together with the repertoire database, cannibalize, more convenient opening reports and the online DB are exactly the type of features I was looking for and SCID is lacking.

Edit: as with many other sorts of software, the Open Source clone may catch up on the most important features, and while the commercial software may have a couple of more features, the OS version is just fine, e.g. for a year now I use openoffice instead of MS office. SCID needs a few development years to reach that and until then, CB is the only application which fills my needs. I feel that SCID now is in the same state StarOffice were in the late 90s and then they were not a convenient replacement for MS Office butthey could perform a couple of simple tasks.

For training material there is lots of it out there, not only drills but also tutorials etc, haven't really done a market search on that yet.

Out of curiouity, what is the 'repertoire' feature in Chessbase? What is the difference between a repertoire base and a normal database? What can you do with repertoire base?