Is solution to Problem Position #23 correct? (in Jeremy Silman's The Amateur's Mind... book)

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Avatar of mchrist152

I'm reading Jeremy's Silman's "The Amateur's Mind Turning Chess Misconceptions into Chess Mastery". While I enjoyed the book and come away with many good tips I'm left scratching my head at Problem Position #23 at the end of the book (page 414). Here is the problem:

The question associated with the problem is: "Should white capture on h6 and open up the g-file for blacks rooks?
When I look at this capture it goes against almost everything Jeremy talks about in his books. You're trading a good bishop for somewhat limited knight that is stuck on the edge of the board with limited mobility. You are opening up a file to your king. Why not let your opponent open his own files? Your attacking on the king side when your pawns are pointing to the queen side. To me it makes little sense. The minor gains you do obtain are the doubling of black's pawns and the creation of a hole on f5 for the eventual placement of a knight. But all in all I would say the negatives outweigh the positives. Yet in Jeremy's book he says "The answer is a resounding yes!" Then I though well, Jeremy is a lot better than me and must know better but just to double check I put it in a chess engine and it wasn't one of its top three choices either. So I'm asking you guys, what do you thing? I taking the knight on h6 a good move with this position?
Thanks in Advance,
Michael Christensen

Avatar of Uninterrupted_Chess
mchrist152 wrote:

I'm reading Jeremy's Silman's "The Amateur's Mind Turning Chess Misconceptions into Chess Mastery". While I enjoyed the book and come away with many good tips I'm left scratching my head at Problem Position #23 at the end of the book (page 414). Here is the problem:

 
The question associated with the problem is: "Should white capture on h6 and open up the g-file for blacks rooks?
 
When I look at this capture it goes against almost everything Jeremy talks about in his books. You're trading a good bishop for somewhat limited knight that is stuck on the edge of the board with limited mobility. You are opening up a file to your king. Why not let your opponent open his own files? Your attacking on the king side when your pawns are pointing to the queen side. To me it makes little sense. The minor gains you do obtain are the doubling of black's pawns and the creation of a hole on f5 for the eventual placement of a knight. But all in all I would say the negatives outweigh the positives. Yet in Jeremy's book he says "The answer is a resounding yes!" Then I though well, Jeremy is a lot better than me and must know better but just to double check I put it in a chess engine and it wasn't one of its top three choices either. So I'm asking you guys, what do you thing? I taking the knight on h6 a good move with this position?
 
Thanks in Advance,
 
Michael Christensen

 

You are prolly right, But white's king is pretty safe unlike the black.. White can play b4 to initiate the pawn attack on the king side, moving the black rook to g8 is useless.. He first has to defend the kings side before attacking like ----> Bxh6 gxh6 b4 Rg8 b5 axb5 Rfb1..

Avatar of IpswichMatt

The engine seems to think that White is well ahead. I agree the engine doesn't seem to like Bxh6 though.

To me though, you can win a pawn with 1 Bxh6 gxh6 2 Qxf6. Then if Black plays something like Bg7 you can force an exchange of Queens with Qf5. Having the Queens off make the semi-open g-file less scary IMO. 

The engine doesn't think much of my line though so there must be something a lot better for White here. Normal procedure with opposite side castling is to run your pawns up the board, so Uninterrupted_Chess's b4 is probably better

Avatar of mchrist152
IpswichMatt wrote:

The engine seems to think that White is well ahead. I agree the engine doesn't seem to like Bxh6 though.

To me though, you can win a pawn with 1 Bxh6 gxh6 2 Qxf6. Then if Black plays something like Bg7 you can force an exchange of Queens with Qf5. Having the Queens off make the semi-open g-file less scary IMO. 

The engine doesn't think much of my line though so there must be something a lot better for White here. Normal procedure with opposite side castling is to run your pawns up the board, so Uninterrupted_Chess's b4 is probably better

Interesting you mention the gain of a pawn. That's what I thought was the best part as well but Jeremy advises against it saying that it allows black counter play.  Jeremy recommends 13.Ne2 instead of 13.Qxf6. He says: "Instead of eating a pawn by 13.Qxf6 (which gives Black some counter play with 13...Be7, 14.Qf5 Qxf5, 15.exf5 Rdf8, 16.g4 h5, 17.f3 hxg4, 18.fxg4 h5, 19. Rf2 hxg4, 20.hxg4 Rfg8, 21.Rg2 Rh4),etc.,etc,..." But instead of 14.Qf5 if whites plays 14.Qxh6 then white gets 2 pawns and eliminates the described counter play as well. I just think Jeremy messed up here and it sounds like you kind of agree. Thanks for your input.

Avatar of IpswichMatt

Is the idea of 13 Ne2 to get the Knight to the hole on f5?

Avatar of Jenium

Chess is a concrete game, and guidelines alone (good bishop, bad knight) will not do the job...

You plonk the knight on f5, play g3 and h4, and Black has no counterplay on the kingside. No pawn to fend off the knight, no lever to open files, and the bishop is basically trapped. It might be clearer if you ask yourself what you would do if you were Black in that position...

Avatar of mchrist152
IpswichMatt wrote:

Is the idea of 13 Ne2 to get the Knight to the hole on f5?

Yes, that's the idea.

Avatar of mchrist152

After:

13.Ne2

the rest of the game goes like this:

13...Be7

14.Ng3 Rdg8

15.Nf5 and White went on to win the game

Avatar of JoshuaBok

Hi there Michael,

As I look at the position, I firmly agree that it looks dangerous to open the g-file and it doesn't feel right to give away a good bishop for a bad knight on the rim. 

However, the first few thoughts that come to mind are:

- White's pieces aren't in place for an attack to the Black King; they all need to reposition to the Queenside

- Black's pieces, although quite awkwardly placed at the moment, are sooner to reposition and support a breakthrough. 

 

That being said, I think White should be the one worried about Black's breakthrough. Thus, the vocal point for White should be "How do I effectively stop Black from setting up an attack?". Black's main means of opening lines for his rooks, his Queen and his Bishop is the move (not the engine move, but the human-looking move!) "f6-f5!", which is supported by the Knight and the Queen. From my point of view (which is the mindset of a 1400 +/- player), it goes like this:

- "If White takes the pawn with exf5, then Nxf5 will give the Knight a nice square which won't easily be attacked. White's thrust g2-g4 would only weaken his kingside. The Bishop on f8 will enjoy having more freedom along the d8-h4 diagonal now that the f-pawn is gone, and the rooks will move respectively to f8 and g8."

- "If White does not take the pawn with exf5 and plays a different move, say, like Ne2, then f4!! will only help Black in his attack."

 

Now, if White were to take on h6 there would be some problems for Black to deal with!  Let's exlore in a human way, shall we? 

"If Bxh6?!, then gxh6. Black is left with doubled pawns on the h-file, but the break with f6-f5 is not as strong anymore because of "... f5? exf5", after which the Knight will have a healthy blockading role on e4. Furthermore, Black can't break through on the Kingside if I build the structure f2-g3-h4, which also helps protect the pawn on f5 by guarding the g5 square. The Knight on e4 will support the break c2-c4 at some point and the Queen and her Rooks will move to the Queenside to support an attack on the Black King. Lastly, Black's Bishop has no real prospects, being blocked by the h6-, f6- and d6 pawns - quite the Tall Pawn for now indeed!"

 

In conclusion: I get why not taking the Knight on h6 is good, but I can understand what imbalances remain if White takes on h6. I would say: what would you like more? To keep your healthy, good Bishop in play, or would you rather create direct weaknesses in your enemies camp?"

Avatar of mchrist152

Thanks everybody for some great input. I wish there was some sort of like button for these posts but I haven't been able to find one. Anyway, you are really helping me better understand this scenario.

Avatar of Uninterrupted_Chess
mchrist152 wrote:

Thanks everybody for some great input. I wish there was some sort of like button for these posts but I haven't been able to find one. Anyway, you are really helping me better understand this scenario.

Pleasure to help happy.png, I would also suggest chess.com to add these options like heart, like, laugh, horsey, etc.. 

It would be super cool!